CoC [Final]

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CoC [Final]

Joshua D. Drake
Hello,

O.k. so I let every thing sit with V7 for several days and we have
received no further feedback. I believe we have reached a point where we
can reasonably consider this Final or at least Final Draft.

This final draft incorporates all reasonable feedback I have received as
well as rewriting it in a more conversational tone from Kevin Grittner's
efforts.

== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful,
productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to
contribute to the PostgreSQL community. It applies to all "collaborative
space", which is defined as community communications channels (such as
mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, commit comments, etc.).

* We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.

* Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
tolerated.

Sincerely,

JD

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Re: CoC [Final]

Kevin Grittner-7
On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
> pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
> tolerated.

Personally, I was comfortable with the rest of it, but this one
made me squirm a little.  Could we spin that to say that those
behaviors will not be tolerated, versus not tolerating the people?
Maybe:

* Disruption of the collaborative space or any pattern of
behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
tolerated.

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Re: CoC [Final]

Greg Sabino Mullane
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> This final draft incorporates all reasonable feedback I have received as
> well as rewriting it in a more conversational tone from Kevin Grittner's
> efforts.

Looks great to me. Thanks for all your efforts in this.

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PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 201601181316
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
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Re: CoC [Final]

Joshua D. Drake
In reply to this post by Kevin Grittner-7
On 01/18/2016 10:15 AM, Kevin Grittner wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
>> pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
>> tolerated.
>
> Personally, I was comfortable with the rest of it, but this one
> made me squirm a little.  Could we spin that to say that those
> behaviors will not be tolerated, versus not tolerating the people?
> Maybe:
>
> * Disruption of the collaborative space or any pattern of
> behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
> tolerated.

No argument from me. I think they both service the same gist.

Sincerely,

JD



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Re: CoC [Final]

Karsten Hilbert
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake
On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 10:02:33AM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> O.k. so I let every thing sit with V7 for several days and we have received
> no further feedback. I believe we have reached a point where we can
> reasonably consider this Final or at least Final Draft.

While the verbiage seems OK with me -- has there been
consensus as to whether we actually want/need a CoC ?

Thanks,
Karsten Hilbert
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Re: CoC [Final]

Joshua D. Drake
On 01/18/2016 10:38 AM, Karsten Hilbert wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 10:02:33AM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
>> O.k. so I let every thing sit with V7 for several days and we have received
>> no further feedback. I believe we have reached a point where we can
>> reasonably consider this Final or at least Final Draft.
>
> While the verbiage seems OK with me -- has there been
> consensus as to whether we actually want/need a CoC ?

I believe this question is answered in the various threads.

Sincerely,

JD

>
> Thanks,
> Karsten Hilbert
>


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Re: CoC [Final]

Stéphane Schildknecht
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake
On 18/01/2016 19:36, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> On 01/18/2016 10:15 AM, Kevin Grittner wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
>>> pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
>>> tolerated.
>>
>> Personally, I was comfortable with the rest of it, but this one
>> made me squirm a little.  Could we spin that to say that those
>> behaviors will not be tolerated, versus not tolerating the people?
>> Maybe:
>>
>> * Disruption of the collaborative space or any pattern of
>> behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
>> tolerated.
>
> No argument from me. I think they both service the same gist.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> JD
>
>
>

I would also vote in favour of not tolerating the behaviour. I guess it would
be less open to critics than saying a participant is not tolerated...



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Re: CoC [Final]

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 10:02:33 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <[hidden email]> wrote:


> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in
> a pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not
> be tolerated.

This one might come back to bite you. I, along with probably twenty
others, "disrupted the collaborative space" on the Debian-User mailing
list during the Systemd Civil War, and I'd do it over again because of
the technological and practical importance of preserving an alternative
to systemd. I'd even like to believe that in a small way I helped
recruit more people to the Devuan (Debian Fork) project.

My posting rights were removed, basically, for "disrupting the
collaborative space", and that's fine: Guilty as charged. But here's
the thing: The list was moderated by a systemd advocate, who let the
pro-systemd fanatics disrupt the collaborative space to their hearts'
content with only the mildest wrist slaps, while removing posting
rights of several anti-systemd people.

"Disrupting the collaborative space" is very hard to define even when
nobody has an agenda. When there are agendas, it almost certainly will
lead to selective enforcement.

Be careful what you wish for :-)

SteveT

Steve Litt
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
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Re: CoC [Final]

Brian Dunavant
> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in
> a pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not
> be tolerated.

Perhaps changing the ", or participate" to " by engaging" would make
that statement more focused.

> "Disrupting the collaborative space" is very hard to define even when
> nobody has an agenda. When there are agendas, it almost certainly will
> lead to selective enforcement.

PHP is currently going through a CoC discussion as well.  Paul Jones
has a good blog post on the dangers of CoC's and their abuse.

http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/6214


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Re: CoC [Final]

Geoff Winkless
On 20 January 2016 at 15:19, Brian Dunavant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in
>> a pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not
>> be tolerated.
>
> Perhaps changing the ", or participate" to " by engaging" would make
> that statement more focused.

Well yes, it makes it more focussed, but also completely changes the meaning.

I could have got it wrong, but as I understood it the intention was
that disrupting the collaborative space by other means (say, by
posting multiple threads about something about which the majority have
no interest to a mailing list where it might reasonably be considered
offtopic, and telling anyone who complains that they can "just ignore
them"?) would also not be tolerated.

But maybe I'm just being facetious :)

Geoff


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Re: CoC [Final]

Simon Riggs
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake
On 18 January 2016 at 18:02, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
O.k. so I let every thing sit with V7 for several days and we have received no further feedback. I believe we have reached a point where we can reasonably consider this Final or at least Final Draft.

This final draft incorporates all reasonable feedback I have received as well as rewriting it in a more conversational tone from Kevin Grittner's efforts.

== PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==

This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute to the PostgreSQL community. It applies to all "collaborative space", which is defined as community communications channels (such as mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, commit comments, etc.).

* We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.

* Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
should always assume good intentions.

* Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be tolerated.

I think this is well intentioned. All new laws should be subject to scrutiny as to how they will be applied and who will apply them.

There are difficulties here and I'm of the opinion it will have the opposite effect to its intention. 

Person1: "I'd like you to stop doing that, it has bad effects"

(Lets assume that something bad has actually happened, enacted by Person 2)
Person2: "But everything I do is for the common good." - now anything that is said further violates point 3, straying near point 2.

Any attempt by Person1 to carry on the discussion until a reasonable outcome is achieved also violates point 4.

So even though Person2 has done something bad, Person1 is unable to discuss this without being sanctioned.

My observation is this isn't just a set of rules for behaviour, its a set of rules that controls people's ability to object, which is dangerous and would not be in the longer term interests of the community.

I suggest we remove point 3 entirely. Point 2 is sufficient to limit what is said.

Who will decide how this code is enacted? Rules imply rulers, so what is the constitution of the governing body?

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Re: CoC [Final]

Kevin Grittner-7
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Simon Riggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 18 January 2016 at 18:02, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> * We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.
>>
>> * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
>> of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.
>>
>> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
>> should always assume good intentions.
>>
>> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
>> pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
>> tolerated.

> I suggest we remove point 3 entirely. Point 2 is sufficient to limit what is
> said.

That came about because of the point made by someone for whom
English is a second language, who attempted to complement someone
by saying the work was "gross" (meaning "a big thing"), when that
was initially taken as an insult (thinking "disgusting" was meant).
Perhaps it belongs more in the preamble or could be omitted, but
it was an attempt to recognize that simple miscommunication due to
language or cultural differences can turn into flame wars if people
don't give each other some benefit of the doubt.

> Who will decide how this code is enacted? Rules imply rulers, so what is the
> constitution of the governing body?

It has been stated several times on this thread by multiple people
that we should settle on the code to implement before talking about
enforcement processes.

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Re: CoC [Final]

Karsten Hilbert
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 01:05:15PM -0600, Kevin Grittner wrote:

>>> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
>>> should always assume good intentions.
...
> That came about because of the point made by someone for whom
> English is a second language, who attempted to complement someone
> by saying the work was "gross" (meaning "a big thing"), when that
> was initially taken as an insult (thinking "disgusting" was meant).
> Perhaps it belongs more in the preamble or could be omitted, but
> it was an attempt to recognize that simple miscommunication due to
> language or cultural differences can turn into flame wars if people
> don't give each other some benefit of the doubt.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
  should always consider the possibility of misunderstandings.

Karsten
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Re: CoC [Final]

Simon Riggs
In reply to this post by Kevin Grittner-7
On 20 January 2016 at 19:05, Kevin Grittner <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Simon Riggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 18 January 2016 at 18:02, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> * We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.
>>
>> * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
>> of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.
>>
>> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
>> should always assume good intentions.
>>
>> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
>> pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
>> tolerated.

> I suggest we remove point 3 entirely. Point 2 is sufficient to limit what is
> said.

That came about because of the point made by someone for whom
English is a second language, who attempted to complement someone
by saying the work was "gross" (meaning "a big thing"), when that
was initially taken as an insult (thinking "disgusting" was meant).
Perhaps it belongs more in the preamble or could be omitted, but
it was an attempt to recognize that simple miscommunication due to
language or cultural differences can turn into flame wars if people
don't give each other some benefit of the doubt.

Which means that anyone who violates point 2 cannot be held to account, because doing so would violate point 3.

I agree it is a great idea to assume the good intentions of others, but its a difficult principle to enforce.

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Re: CoC [Final]

Simon Riggs
In reply to this post by Karsten Hilbert
On 20 January 2016 at 19:14, Karsten Hilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 01:05:15PM -0600, Kevin Grittner wrote:

>>> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
>>> should always assume good intentions.
...
> That came about because of the point made by someone for whom
> English is a second language, who attempted to complement someone
> by saying the work was "gross" (meaning "a big thing"), when that
> was initially taken as an insult (thinking "disgusting" was meant).
> Perhaps it belongs more in the preamble or could be omitted, but
> it was an attempt to recognize that simple miscommunication due to
> language or cultural differences can turn into flame wars if people
> don't give each other some benefit of the doubt.

* When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
  should always consider the possibility of misunderstandings.

+1 

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Re: CoC [Final]

Alvaro Herrera-9
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake
Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> == PostgreSQL Community Code of Conduct (CoC) ==
>
> This document provides community guidelines for a safe, respectful,
> productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to
> contribute to the PostgreSQL community. It applies to all "collaborative
> space", which is defined as community communications channels (such as
> mailing lists, IRC, submitted patches, commit comments, etc.).

I think the words "collaborative space, which is defined as" can be
omitted completely without loss of meaning; and since it's already
agreed that this CoC only applies to online media; I'd also add the word
"online" there.  So

  "It applies to all online communication channels (such as ...)".

> * We are tolerant of people’s right to have opposing views.

Reading the fine print of this phrase, I think it doesn't really convey
what we want it to convey.  "We are tolerant of people that have
opposing views", perhaps, or "We recognize people's right to have
opposing views".  My points is that we are not tolerant of _the right_
-- that seems nonsensical to me.

(Merriam Webster defines "tolerant" as "inclined to tolerate", and "to
tolerate" as "2a. to allow to be or to be done without prohibition,
hindrance, or contradiction")

However the "we" also seems a bit wrong to me.  Who is "we"?  In
concordance with the other points, I think this should start
"Participants must be" or something along those lines.  If not, the
perhaps this point should be in the preamble instead of being a
bulleted point.

> * Participants must ensure that their language and actions are free
> of personal attacks and disparaging personal remarks.

There have been no comments to this point on this thread.
Congratulations :-)

> * When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants
> should always assume good intentions.

Karsten Hilbert proposed a different wording for this, +1 for that one.

> * Participants who disrupt the collaborative space, or participate in a
> pattern of behaviour which could be considered harassment will not be
> tolerated.

"which could be considered" is too open-ended.  Since this point is
the one and only that can cause enforcement to occur, it should be more
strict as to what it is that will not be tolerated.  I'd propose
something like "is widely regarded as harassment" or something like
that, so that it needs to be clear that there is a large group of people
that considers the behavior unwanted rather than some minority.

I also agree that what we don't tolerate is the behavior, not the person
engaging in the behavior.  Regarding mailing list misbehavior, for
instance, I would think that this means that that person's post would be
moderated (and each post would only be approved if it has no personal
attacks, etc) instead of the person being completely banned from a list.

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Re: CoC [Final]

Geoff Winkless
On 20 January 2016 at 20:04, Alvaro Herrera <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "which could be considered" is too open-ended.  Since this point is
> the one and only that can cause enforcement to occur, it should be more
> strict as to what it is that will not be tolerated.  I'd propose
> something like "is widely regarded as harassment" or something like
> that, so that it needs to be clear that there is a large group of people
> that considers the behavior unwanted rather than some minority.

The problem with _that_ is that on the internet of 3 billion people "a
large group of people" can be whipped up from a tiny minority.

Geoff


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Re: CoC [Final]

Chris Travers-5


On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Geoff Winkless <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20 January 2016 at 20:04, Alvaro Herrera <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "which could be considered" is too open-ended.  Since this point is
> the one and only that can cause enforcement to occur, it should be more
> strict as to what it is that will not be tolerated.  I'd propose
> something like "is widely regarded as harassment" or something like
> that, so that it needs to be clear that there is a large group of people
> that considers the behavior unwanted rather than some minority.

The problem with _that_ is that on the internet of 3 billion people "a
large group of people" can be whipped up from a tiny minority.

At the end of the day this will require human judgment rather than formulation.

Human judgment may be flawed but in a culturally diverse group it is far better than the alternative.

Geoff


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Re: CoC [Final]

Geoff Winkless
On 21 January 2016 at 10:37, Chris Travers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> At the end of the day this will require human judgment rather than
> formulation.

Then make it explicit.

* Disruption of the collaborative space, or patterns of behaviour
which the majority of the core team consider to be harassment, will
not be tolerated.

(I've depersonalised the sentence also, to make it clear that it's the
action and not the actor that is not tolerated)

> Human judgment may be flawed but in a culturally diverse group it is far
> better than the alternative.

It's better to let the baying crowd decide your fate rather than
codifying acceptable behaviour?

The Dark Ages called, they want their Justice model back :)

Geoff


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Re: CoC [Final]

Chris Travers-5


On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Geoff Winkless <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 21 January 2016 at 10:37, Chris Travers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> At the end of the day this will require human judgment rather than
> formulation.

Then make it explicit.

* Disruption of the collaborative space, or patterns of behaviour
which the majority of the core team consider to be harassment, will
not be tolerated.

(I've depersonalised the sentence also, to make it clear that it's the
action and not the actor that is not tolerated)

> Human judgment may be flawed but in a culturally diverse group it is far
> better than the alternative.

It's better to let the baying crowd decide your fate rather than
codifying acceptable behaviour?

The Dark Ages called, they want their Justice model back :)

Resisting the urge to talk about how justice was actually seen in the Dark Ages....

But seriously, I think human judgment is better than a code which those who want to cause problems can and will use as a weapon against the rest.

Geoff



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