making me love pgAdmin III

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making me love pgAdmin III

eric.hill

Hey,

 

I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous?  It is absolutely as slow as Christmas.  It’s use of screen real-estate is poor.  I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.

 

Sorry,

 

Eric

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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Dave Page-7


On 18 May 2017, at 21:09, Eric Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey,

 

I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous?  It is absolutely as slow as Christmas.  It’s use of screen real-estate is poor.  I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.


Not to me, because the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably 20x the number who have said they don't like it. Which is a good sign - normally people who don't like something are far more likely to say something.

Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. pgAdmin 4 is far more stable than pgAdmin 3 was, has attracted more new developers in a year than pgAdmin 3 had in 15, and continues to improve with every release. I'm very proud of the way the team have built such a complex application in such a short space of time that many people have told me they like.

You can't please everyone unfortunately, but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.

Constructive feedback is always welcome of course. In your case maybe you could explain how you're using it such that you see slow response. For me, it performs well, even on my low powered 1.2GHz MacBook. It's naturally slower than pgAdmin 3 of course, as it's not a native application, but it still outpaces my ability to drive it and I'm no slouch behind the keyboard.

Regards, Dave
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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

richard-3
In reply to this post by eric.hill
On 2017-05-18 21:09, Eric Hill wrote:

> Hey,
>
> I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings or anything, but is it not
> obvious to everyone that pgAdmin 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody
> horrendous? It is absolutely as slow as Christmas. It's use of screen
> real-estate is poor. I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it
> seemed to do its job okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have
> newfound respect for pgAdmin III.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Eric

Yep, it's horrible.

Why everything has to look like a web application is beyond me. If I
wanted that, I could use something like phppgadmin.

Richard


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

adebarros
pgAdmin 4 does get better with each release, and it's exciting to see the folks from Pivotal prepping several major design contributions. 



On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 5:15 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2017-05-18 21:09, Eric Hill wrote:
Hey,

I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings or anything, but is it not
obvious to everyone that pgAdmin 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody
horrendous? It is absolutely as slow as Christmas. It's use of screen
real-estate is poor. I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it
seemed to do its job okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have
newfound respect for pgAdmin III.

Sorry,

Eric

Yep, it's horrible.

Why everything has to look like a web application is beyond me. If I wanted that, I could use something like phppgadmin.

Richard


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Lazaro Garcia
In reply to this post by richard-3
I think pgAdmin4 is a new project and many enhancements could be made but
for now it is a good tool for managing the database via web interface.

I think the template is not horrible, that app is for managing, not for
shopping and ocio.

Regards.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre de [hidden email]
Enviado el: jueves, 18 de mayo de 2017 05:15 p. m.
Para: [hidden email]
Asunto: Re: [pgadmin-support] making me love pgAdmin III

On 2017-05-18 21:09, Eric Hill wrote:

> Hey,
>
> I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings or anything, but is it not
> obvious to everyone that pgAdmin 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody
> horrendous? It is absolutely as slow as Christmas. It's use of screen
> real-estate is poor. I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it
> seemed to do its job okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have
> newfound respect for pgAdmin III.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Eric

Yep, it's horrible.

Why everything has to look like a web application is beyond me. If I wanted
that, I could use something like phppgadmin.

Richard


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Melvin Davidson-6
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7
Dave,

If you are looking for constructive criticism, then the following are options that
were in PgAdmin III and at minimum should be added back to PgAdmin4.

1. The ability to choose a specific font for displays or query window
2. Choose colors for query options
3. Favorites & macros in query screen
4. Choose colors for server status

Personally, I still cannot comprehend why all options/features that were in PgAdmin III
were not included in PgAdmin4. I have never heard of any other software program where
options/features from a previous release were not included in the newest release.
Compare the options window in PgAdmin4 to PgAdmin III and you will see there is a great
deal more missing.

As to your statement "the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably
20x the number who have said they don't like it.", those compliments must be coming to
another email address other than pgadmin-support, because I have not seen them.

I do appreciate what you and your team are doing, but as I have said before, I believe
PgAdmin4 was a hurried release and more testing should have been done before it went GA.
 
Melvin Davidson 🎸
I reserve the right to fantasize.  Whether or not you
wish to share my fantasy is entirely up to you.
www.youtube.com/unusedhero/videos
Folk Alley - All Folk - 24 Hours a day
www.folkalley.com




From: Dave Page <[hidden email]>
To: Eric Hill <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [pgadmin-support] making me love pgAdmin III



On 18 May 2017, at 21:09, Eric Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hey,
 
I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous?  It is absolutely as slow as Christmas.  It’s use of screen real-estate is poor.  I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.

Not to me, because the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably 20x the number who have said they don't like it. Which is a good sign - normally people who don't like something are far more likely to say something.

Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. pgAdmin 4 is far more stable than pgAdmin 3 was, has attracted more new developers in a year than pgAdmin 3 had in 15, and continues to improve with every release. I'm very proud of the way the team have built such a complex application in such a short space of time that many people have told me they like.

You can't please everyone unfortunately, but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.

Constructive feedback is always welcome of course. In your case maybe you could explain how you're using it such that you see slow response. For me, it performs well, even on my low powered 1.2GHz MacBook. It's naturally slower than pgAdmin 3 of course, as it's not a native application, but it still outpaces my ability to drive it and I'm no slouch behind the keyboard.

Regards, Dave


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Russell Mercer

Dave,

In addition, the single biggest issue I have with PgAdmin4 is the new window structure.  Where PgAdminIII was natively installed, and thus embraced all the multiple window functionality therein, PgAdmin4 is constrained to a single application window.  This makes it impossible to embrace multiple monitors unless you open up multiple application instances, which I don't even know if supported.  Basically, where I used to be able to spread windows and queries in PgAdminIII across all my monitors as necessary to compare tables, and copy and paste code between Queries, I am now constrained to a single window and switching between tabs that are named Query-1, Query-2, etc. regardless of whether it is a table, query, etc. being viewed.  As Melvin stated, I do not understand why the most basic functionality and flexibility of the software was abandoned, or not included in the initial release of the new software.

Even if you do pop a query out to a separate window, it is constrained within the application window, and the behavior is not consistent.

Here are a few others:

1.  Aforementioned Query/Table naming.  Naming everything Query-1, etc. regardless of whether a table view, or a query is making it less informative. 
2.  Speed of PgAdmin4 compared to PgAdminIII is a major issue.  I have queries and tables that hang in 4 which work when I open up using 3.
3.  Change of display of Geometry Reference for PostGIS extension.  Instead of referencing the geometry type and spatial reference, it lists an integer that has no clear meaning.  It is a two or 3 step process to trace back to geometry type and spatial reference.
Old:  geometry(MultiPolygon,3500)
New:  geometry(896020)

I understand the urge and need to move to new technologies and practices for application development.  That should always be done in the context of preserving the usability of the existing software, and not losing the functionality already contained therein.

Thanks,
Russell

 


On 2017-05-18 18:27, Melvin Davidson wrote:

Dave,
 
If you are looking for constructive criticism, then the following are options that
were in PgAdmin III and at minimum should be added back to PgAdmin4.
 
1. The ability to choose a specific font for displays or query window
2. Choose colors for query options
3. Favorites & macros in query screen
4. Choose colors for server status
 
Personally, I still cannot comprehend why all options/features that were in PgAdmin III
were not included in PgAdmin4. I have never heard of any other software program where
options/features from a previous release were not included in the newest release.
Compare the options window in PgAdmin4 to PgAdmin III and you will see there is a great
deal more missing.
 
As to your statement "the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably
20x the number who have said they don't like it.", those compliments must be coming to
another email address other than pgadmin-support, because I have not seen them.
 
I do appreciate what you and your team are doing, but as I have said before, I believe
PgAdmin4 was a hurried release and more testing should have been done before it went GA.
 
Melvin Davidson 🎸
I reserve the right to fantasize.  Whether or not you
wish to share my fantasy is entirely up to you.
www.youtube.com/unusedhero/videos
Folk Alley - All Folk - 24 Hours a day
www.folkalley.com




From: Dave Page <[hidden email]>
To: Eric Hill <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [pgadmin-support] making me love pgAdmin III

 

On 18 May 2017, at 21:09, Eric Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:

 
 
Hey,
 
I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous?  It is absolutely as slow as Christmas.  It's use of screen real-estate is poor.  I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.

Not to me, because the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably 20x the number who have said they don't like it. Which is a good sign - normally people who don't like something are far more likely to say something.
 
Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. pgAdmin 4 is far more stable than pgAdmin 3 was, has attracted more new developers in a year than pgAdmin 3 had in 15, and continues to improve with every release. I'm very proud of the way the team have built such a complex application in such a short space of time that many people have told me they like.
 
You can't please everyone unfortunately, but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.
 
Constructive feedback is always welcome of course. In your case maybe you could explain how you're using it such that you see slow response. For me, it performs well, even on my low powered 1.2GHz MacBook. It's naturally slower than pgAdmin 3 of course, as it's not a native application, but it still outpaces my ability to drive it and I'm no slouch behind the keyboard.
 
Regards, Dave


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Tomek-3
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7
18 maja 2017 22:43 - "Dave Page" <[hidden email]>:

> On 18 May 2017, at 21:09, Eric Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hey,
>>
>> I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin
>> 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous? It is absolutely as slow as Christmas. It’s use of
>> screen real-estate is poor. I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job
>> okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.
>
> Not to me, because the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably 20x the number
> who have said they don't like it. Which is a good sign - normally people who don't like something
> are far more likely to say something.
>
> Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. pgAdmin 4 is far more stable than pgAdmin 3 was,
> has attracted more new developers in a year than pgAdmin 3 had in 15, and continues to improve with
> every release. I'm very proud of the way the team have built such a complex application in such a
> short space of time that many people have told me they like.
>
> You can't please everyone unfortunately, but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M
> worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.
>
> Constructive feedback is always welcome of course. In your case maybe you could explain how you're
> using it such that you see slow response. For me, it performs well, even on my low powered 1.2GHz
> MacBook. It's naturally slower than pgAdmin 3 of course, as it's not a native application, but it
> still outpaces my ability to drive it and I'm no slouch behind the keyboard.

You don't care what You users say about Your software??? That's a nice statement...
I've posted here a list of what is missing/wrong in new pgAdmin - did You even commented on that?
What is this 'Constructive feedback'?

How 4 is more stable than 3? Please explain it to us... In 1.4 - query SELECT 2/0; returns
successfully...
And please, please explain to us how 'less and slower' is better than 'more and faster'...

I must ask it - do You even work with databases? Because from how You made new pgAdmin, it looks
like You don't have a clue what real dbadmins do...

You say pgAdmin 4 attracted more developers... I don't know how You measure it but for me - a guy
with more than 10 years work experience with PostgreSQL - it's a sign to move to another db...

I must say - You had a possibility that few developers have - make software from scratch - and You
made all possible mistakes:
- wrong toolkit (html... really??? - so many fast, portable toolkits and You picked the slowest...)
- less functionality (can't even copy/paste data from query...)
- waaay slower (10 times at least for everything - queries, browsing - even ui drags behind mouse)
- released alpha as stable.
- ...

--
Tomek


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Dave Page-7
On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Tomek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 18 maja 2017 22:43 - "Dave Page" <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On 18 May 2017, at 21:09, Eric Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin
>>> 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous? It is absolutely as slow as Christmas. It’s use of
>>> screen real-estate is poor. I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job
>>> okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.
>>
>> Not to me, because the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably 20x the number
>> who have said they don't like it. Which is a good sign - normally people who don't like something
>> are far more likely to say something.
>>
>> Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. pgAdmin 4 is far more stable than pgAdmin 3 was,
>> has attracted more new developers in a year than pgAdmin 3 had in 15, and continues to improve with
>> every release. I'm very proud of the way the team have built such a complex application in such a
>> short space of time that many people have told me they like.
>>
>> You can't please everyone unfortunately, but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M
>> worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.
>>
>> Constructive feedback is always welcome of course. In your case maybe you could explain how you're
>> using it such that you see slow response. For me, it performs well, even on my low powered 1.2GHz
>> MacBook. It's naturally slower than pgAdmin 3 of course, as it's not a native application, but it
>> still outpaces my ability to drive it and I'm no slouch behind the keyboard.
>
> You don't care what You users say about Your software??? That's a nice statement...
Twisting my words is a great way to make your point. Kudos.

> I've posted here a list of what is missing/wrong in new pgAdmin - did You even commented on that?

Posted here? The website is quite clear that bugs and feature requests
should be logged as tickets on our Redmine instance. There is no
guarantee developers will read every message here.

> What is this 'Constructive feedback'?

Constructive feedback is that which describes an issue and steps to
reproduce it with the aim of helping the developers resolve it, or in
the case of a new feature, describing what is required and why it
would be useful.

Feedback along the lines of "It's crap and I hate it" is unhelpful and
will likely be ignored.

> How 4 is more stable than 3? Please explain it to us...

Because it doesn't crash every 5 minutes? Because it doesn't go nuts
if it loses an open database connection?

> In 1.4 - query SELECT 2/0; returns
> successfully...

Oh? I haven't seen that logged. When I try it, I get the result in the
attached screenshot.

> And please, please explain to us how 'less and slower' is better than 'more and faster'...

The vast majority of the "more" wasn't used by anyone. Did you ever
create an Operator Class? Or use pgScript for example?

Sure, there are some things we left out that we didn't realise users
use - and we're adding them back in.

As for the speed, yes, it's a little slower due to the architecture,
but we're talking fractions of a second (at least on all the machines
and virtual machines I've tested on). I know I still can't keep up
with it. The only exception I know of is the query tool with very
large results sets, which we've been working on and already have a WIP
patch that makes it ~20x *faster* than pgAdmin 3 in some large test
cases.

> I must ask it - do You even work with databases? Because from how You made new pgAdmin, it looks
> like You don't have a clue what real dbadmins do...
>
> You say pgAdmin 4 attracted more developers... I don't know how You measure it but for me - a guy
> with more than 10 years work experience with PostgreSQL - it's a sign to move to another db...
>
> I must say - You had a possibility that few developers have - make software from scratch - and You
> made all possible mistakes:
> - wrong toolkit (html... really??? - so many fast, portable toolkits and You picked the slowest...)

Oh? You have a better idea for something that we wanted to be able to
run over the web? Java or Flash perhaps?

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Darren Duncan
In reply to this post by Melvin Davidson-6
On 2017-05-18 6:27 PM, Melvin Davidson wrote:
> I have never heard of any other software program where
> options/features from a previous release were not included in the newest release.

Oh really?  Excluding features/options when making major new versions happens
all the time.

Look at a lot of the software Apple releases for example.  Intuit also did it
with Quicken for another example.

The fact PgAdmin 4 lacks some features of PgAdmin 3 has a lot of precedent in
the industry.

The fact is, every feature/option you have has costs to make it and costs to
continue maintaining it, so sometimes taking things away is beneficial.  That's
not to say that taking some things away isn't painful, but that's not the case
with all features and options.

-- Darren Duncan



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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Daniel Küppers
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7


Am 19.05.2017 um 10:04 schrieb Dave Page:

> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Tomek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 18 maja 2017 22:43 - "Dave Page" <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On 18 May 2017, at 21:09, Eric Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey,
>>>>
>>>> I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin
>>>> 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous? It is absolutely as slow as Christmas. It’s use of
>>>> screen real-estate is poor. I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job
>>>> okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.
>>> Not to me, because the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably 20x the number
>>> who have said they don't like it. Which is a good sign - normally people who don't like something
>>> are far more likely to say something.
>>>
>>> Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. pgAdmin 4 is far more stable than pgAdmin 3 was,
>>> has attracted more new developers in a year than pgAdmin 3 had in 15, and continues to improve with
>>> every release. I'm very proud of the way the team have built such a complex application in such a
>>> short space of time that many people have told me they like.
>>>
>>> You can't please everyone unfortunately, but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M
>>> worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.
>>>
>>> Constructive feedback is always welcome of course. In your case maybe you could explain how you're
>>> using it such that you see slow response. For me, it performs well, even on my low powered 1.2GHz
>>> MacBook. It's naturally slower than pgAdmin 3 of course, as it's not a native application, but it
>>> still outpaces my ability to drive it and I'm no slouch behind the keyboard.
>> You don't care what You users say about Your software??? That's a nice statement...
> Twisting my words is a great way to make your point. Kudos.
>
>> I've posted here a list of what is missing/wrong in new pgAdmin - did You even commented on that?
> Posted here? The website is quite clear that bugs and feature requests
> should be logged as tickets on our Redmine instance. There is no
> guarantee developers will read every message here.
>
>> What is this 'Constructive feedback'?
> Constructive feedback is that which describes an issue and steps to
> reproduce it with the aim of helping the developers resolve it, or in
> the case of a new feature, describing what is required and why it
> would be useful.
>
> Feedback along the lines of "It's crap and I hate it" is unhelpful and
> will likely be ignored.
>
>> How 4 is more stable than 3? Please explain it to us...
> Because it doesn't crash every 5 minutes? Because it doesn't go nuts
> if it loses an open database connection?
>
>> In 1.4 - query SELECT 2/0; returns
>> successfully...
> Oh? I haven't seen that logged. When I try it, I get the result in the
> attached screenshot.
>
>> And please, please explain to us how 'less and slower' is better than 'more and faster'...
> The vast majority of the "more" wasn't used by anyone. Did you ever
> create an Operator Class? Or use pgScript for example?
>
> Sure, there are some things we left out that we didn't realise users
> use - and we're adding them back in.
>
> As for the speed, yes, it's a little slower due to the architecture,
> but we're talking fractions of a second (at least on all the machines
> and virtual machines I've tested on). I know I still can't keep up
> with it. The only exception I know of is the query tool with very
> large results sets, which we've been working on and already have a WIP
> patch that makes it ~20x *faster* than pgAdmin 3 in some large test
> cases.
>
>> I must ask it - do You even work with databases? Because from how You made new pgAdmin, it looks
>> like You don't have a clue what real dbadmins do...
>>
>> You say pgAdmin 4 attracted more developers... I don't know how You measure it but for me - a guy
>> with more than 10 years work experience with PostgreSQL - it's a sign to move to another db...
>>
>> I must say - You had a possibility that few developers have - make software from scratch - and You
>> made all possible mistakes:
>> - wrong toolkit (html... really??? - so many fast, portable toolkits and You picked the slowest...)
> Oh? You have a better idea for something that we wanted to be able to
> run over the web? Java or Flash perhaps?
>
>
I think, the community should stop blaming the developers for free
Software. That is bad, seriously.
Of course we got issues in pgAdmin4 that need to be adressed. But remember:
they made the effort from native application to crossplatform browser
compatible.
In my opinion, the declaration as stable was too early, but with that,
the developers got also huge feedback.
So community, stop beeing a bully and be smart and constructive. Here is
no place for ranting, but for critic.
I know some people are upset, but clarify it. For myself, i have also
issues with pgAdmin4.
Thats why i switched to valentina studio. I can't use it in production
right know.
Issues are for me slow query windows, disconnects, hanging queries and
false time measurements.
I use pgScript for example on some tricky tasks. I will come back to
pgAdmin4 when it got more mature,
I'll also try out the releases now and then to check if things changed.

But please, stop beeing a jerk. That helps no one. And respect the work
the develops did around pgAdmin4.


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Tomek-3
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7
19 maja 2017 10:04 - "Dave Page" <[hidden email]>:

> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Tomek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> 18 maja 2017 22:43 - "Dave Page" <[hidden email]>:
>
> On 18 May 2017, at 21:09, Eric Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hey,
>>
>> I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or anything, but is it not obvious to everyone that pgAdmin
>> 4 (I have version 1.4) is bloody horrendous? It is absolutely as slow as Christmas. It’s use of
>> screen real-estate is poor. I was never a huge fan of pgAdmin III; I mean, it seemed to do its job
>> okay, but after using pgAdmin 4, suddenly I have newfound respect for pgAdmin III.
>
> Not to me, because the number of people I've had complimenting pgAdmin 4 is probably 20x the number
> who have said they don't like it. Which is a good sign - normally people who don't like something
> are far more likely to say something.
>
> Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. pgAdmin 4 is far more stable than pgAdmin 3 was,
> has attracted more new developers in a year than pgAdmin 3 had in 15, and continues to improve with
> every release. I'm very proud of the way the team have built such a complex application in such a
> short space of time that many people have told me they like.
>
> You can't please everyone unfortunately, but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M
> worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.
>
> Constructive feedback is always welcome of course. In your case maybe you could explain how you're
> using it such that you see slow response. For me, it performs well, even on my low powered 1.2GHz
> MacBook. It's naturally slower than pgAdmin 3 of course, as it's not a native application, but it
> still outpaces my ability to drive it and I'm no slouch behind the keyboard.
>> You don't care what You users say about Your software??? That's a nice statement...
>
> Twisting my words is a great way to make your point. Kudos.

Twisting... Saying "I'm not going to lose sleep over it" means what - in case of someones concerns?

>> I've posted here a list of what is missing/wrong in new pgAdmin - did You even commented on that?
>
> Posted here? The website is quite clear that bugs and feature requests
> should be logged as tickets on our Redmine instance. There is no
> guarantee developers will read every message here.

I get the bugtracker - but my first list contains 19 cases (from one day of using) - cases that
every other dbms has, and previous version had...

- no favorites
- no recent queries
- no single line select (query tool)
- no notepad
- no bracket highlight (start-end, orphan)
- after every query result columns resize to some predefined width (should stay as set)
- no possibility to detach panel to window (multi monitor setup)
- view data result is shown without oid (no option to set it up)
- view data - disabled field edit when no primary key is set (that's why oids are for!)
- cannot select and copy fields from result
- triggers does not descent to its function (it's under properties)
- no object search
- no option to change database in query tool
- history in query tool is useless - can't see query if it is little longer, no copy/paste
- only one error message for every query error: "Not connected to the server or the connection to
the server has been closed." *other error instead*
- view data last/first 100 does not work - always first 100 *fixed*
- view data query is not editable (why is it there???)
- copy button does nothing
- global copy/paste mess - in one place Ctrl+C works other not, the same for context menu

>> What is this 'Constructive feedback'?
>
> Constructive feedback is that which describes an issue and steps to
> reproduce it with the aim of helping the developers resolve it, or in
> the case of a new feature, describing what is required and why it
> would be useful.
>
> Feedback along the lines of "It's crap and I hate it" is unhelpful and
> will likely be ignored.

Nobody said this - we all gave examples what is wrong with it...

>> How 4 is more stable than 3? Please explain it to us...
>
> Because it doesn't crash every 5 minutes? Because it doesn't go nuts
> if it loses an open database connection?

That doesn't mean more stable - that means You've fixed the bug (which everybody got used to)...

>> In 1.4 - query SELECT 2/0; returns
>> successfully...
>
> Oh? I haven't seen that logged. When I try it, I get the result in the
> attached screenshot.

https://ibb.co/eBbtdF

>> And please, please explain to us how 'less and slower' is better than 'more and faster'...
>
> The vast majority of the "more" wasn't used by anyone. Did you ever
> create an Operator Class? Or use pgScript for example?

Look at the list above...

> Sure, there are some things we left out that we didn't realise users
> use - and we're adding them back in.

Some things??? See the list above.
And more:
- can't copy data from result
- can't resize rows
- no code folding
- how can i insert new row?

> As for the speed, yes, it's a little slower due to the architecture,
> but we're talking fractions of a second (at least on all the machines
> and virtual machines I've tested on). I know I still can't keep up
> with it. The only exception I know of is the query tool with very
> large results sets, which we've been working on and already have a WIP
> patch that makes it ~20x *faster* than pgAdmin 3 in some large test
> cases.

I don't see it - I see query that is running 14 seconds in v4 but 3.5 seconds in v3, seconds pass
before new query tab opens, seconds pass before browse tab opens, click properties count to 10 -
properties appear, table properties - You can see switches flipping on columns tab, try moving any
window - drags behind mouse, try put back accidentally detached tab, and so on...
In v3 3 dbs connected 4 query windows, 2 browse windows: private memory: 35 MBytes
In v4 1 db connected 1 query window: private memory: 600 MBytes
In v4 constant CPU usage around 10% (damn dashboard)

> Oh? You have a better idea for something that we wanted to be able to
> run over the web? Java or Flash perhaps?

My objection for html is for standalone app - not webapp.
You know that every major databases does not use web as primary dbms yes? But even if we use it as
a server side only (like phppgadmin) it is still slow...

As I wrote before - there are so many tookits (QT, GTK, even wxWidgets) which are cross platform,
actively maintained that have all the features suitable for dbms - and mostly fast...

--
Tomek


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Dave Page-7
On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Tomek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> You don't care what You users say about Your software??? That's a nice statement...
>>
>> Twisting my words is a great way to make your point. Kudos.
>
> Twisting... Saying "I'm not going to lose sleep over it" means what - in case of someones concerns?

No, it means I'm not going to lose sleep if someone doesn't like
pgAdmin, as you cannot please everyone - that's a fact of life. That
doesn't mean I don't care if users provide useful feedback.

>>> I've posted here a list of what is missing/wrong in new pgAdmin - did You even commented on that?
>>
>> Posted here? The website is quite clear that bugs and feature requests
>> should be logged as tickets on our Redmine instance. There is no
>> guarantee developers will read every message here.
>
> I get the bugtracker - but my first list contains 19 cases (from one day of using) - cases that
> every other dbms has, and previous version had...

OK, so that means we have to use a different process for you? There
are very good reasons why we ask people to use the bug tracker - not
least because it allows us to properly track them.

>> Feedback along the lines of "It's crap and I hate it" is unhelpful and
>> will likely be ignored.
>
> Nobody said this - we all gave examples what is wrong with it...

Perhaps you should re-read the thread.

>>> How 4 is more stable than 3? Please explain it to us...
>>
>> Because it doesn't crash every 5 minutes? Because it doesn't go nuts
>> if it loses an open database connection?
>
> That doesn't mean more stable - that means You've fixed the bug (which everybody got used to)...

Not breaking unexpectedly is the very definition of "stable".

>>> In 1.4 - query SELECT 2/0; returns
>>> successfully...
>>
>> Oh? I haven't seen that logged. When I try it, I get the result in the
>> attached screenshot.
>
> https://ibb.co/eBbtdF

In 1.4?

>>> And please, please explain to us how 'less and slower' is better than 'more and faster'...
>>
>> The vast majority of the "more" wasn't used by anyone. Did you ever
>> create an Operator Class? Or use pgScript for example?
>
> Look at the list above...

That doesn't answer or invalidate my question at all.

>> As for the speed, yes, it's a little slower due to the architecture,
>> but we're talking fractions of a second (at least on all the machines
>> and virtual machines I've tested on). I know I still can't keep up
>> with it. The only exception I know of is the query tool with very
>> large results sets, which we've been working on and already have a WIP
>> patch that makes it ~20x *faster* than pgAdmin 3 in some large test
>> cases.
>
> I don't see it - I see query that is running 14 seconds in v4 but 3.5 seconds in v3, seconds pass
> before new query tab opens, seconds pass before browse tab opens, click properties count to 10 -
> properties appear, table properties - You can see switches flipping on columns tab, try moving any
> window - drags behind mouse, try put back accidentally detached tab, and so on...

With the exception of the query tool, which I noted above, and the
couple of seconds it takes to initialise, all of the above is so close
to instant for me that I can't begin to time it.

> In v3 3 dbs connected 4 query windows, 2 browse windows: private memory: 35 MBytes
> In v4 1 db connected 1 query window: private memory: 600 MBytes
> In v4 constant CPU usage around 10% (damn dashboard)

https://www.pgadmin.org/faq/#5

>> Oh? You have a better idea for something that we wanted to be able to
>> run over the web? Java or Flash perhaps?
>
> My objection for html is for standalone app - not webapp.
> You know that every major databases does not use web as primary dbms yes? But even if we use it as
> a server side only (like phppgadmin) it is still slow...

I'm sorry - I thought we were free to write and give away at no cost
whatever software we wanted.

Seriously, this is Open Source. Contributors work on what they want,
and clearly (based on the number of contributors we have now) more
people want to work on newer technology that can be run in multiple
different modes - and based on the download numbers, most users aren't
disagreeing with our choices. We could have just quit and gone and
done something else instead but instead, people have put in well over
20,000 hours of effort at this point to give you something for free.

I'm more than happy to help when bug reports are logged, and to make
improvements where issues can be demonstrated and reproduced. However,
if that isn't good enough for you then I'd suggest that maybe you
would prefer to use an alternative tool.


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Tomek-3
19 maja 2017 12:24 - "Dave Page" <[hidden email]>:

> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Tomek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> You don't care what You users say about Your software??? That's a nice statement...
>
> Twisting my words is a great way to make your point. Kudos.
>> Twisting... Saying "I'm not going to lose sleep over it" means what - in case of someones concerns?
>
> No, it means I'm not going to lose sleep if someone doesn't like
> pgAdmin, as you cannot please everyone - that's a fact of life. That
> doesn't mean I don't care if users provide useful feedback.

Please understand - this is not about LIKING - this is about missing features and problems with the
software...

>> I've posted here a list of what is missing/wrong in new pgAdmin - did You even commented on that?
>
> Posted here? The website is quite clear that bugs and feature requests
> should be logged as tickets on our Redmine instance. There is no
> guarantee developers will read every message here.
>> I get the bugtracker - but my first list contains 19 cases (from one day of using) - cases that
>> every other dbms has, and previous version had...
>
> OK, so that means we have to use a different process for you? There
> are very good reasons why we ask people to use the bug tracker - not
> least because it allows us to properly track them.

There are also good reasons not to release aplpa as "pgAdmin 4 is a complete rewrite of pgAdmin"...
I understand the use of bugtracker - but I hoped that "complete rewrite" will be complete...

> Feedback along the lines of "It's crap and I hate it" is unhelpful and
> will likely be ignored.
>> Nobody said this - we all gave examples what is wrong with it...
>
> Perhaps you should re-read the thread.

Everyone pointed out something, yes I admit using words like horrible, but giving a reason why...

>> How 4 is more stable than 3? Please explain it to us...
>
> Because it doesn't crash every 5 minutes? Because it doesn't go nuts
> if it loses an open database connection?
>> That doesn't mean more stable - that means You've fixed the bug (which everybody got used to)...
>
> Not breaking unexpectedly is the very definition of "stable".

This debate is pointless - I can point lot more bugs in v3 but saying 'more stable' is an
overstatement...

>> In 1.4 - query SELECT 2/0; returns
>> successfully...
>
> Oh? I haven't seen that logged. When I try it, I get the result in the
> attached screenshot.
>> https://ibb.co/eBbtdF
>
> In 1.4?

Yes in 1.4.

>> And please, please explain to us how 'less and slower' is better than 'more and faster'...
>
> The vast majority of the "more" wasn't used by anyone. Did you ever
> create an Operator Class? Or use pgScript for example?
>> Look at the list above...
>
> That doesn't answer or invalidate my question at all.

Missing features does not answer Your question? So according to You nobody uses features I pointed
out?

> As for the speed, yes, it's a little slower due to the architecture,
> but we're talking fractions of a second (at least on all the machines
> and virtual machines I've tested on). I know I still can't keep up
> with it. The only exception I know of is the query tool with very
> large results sets, which we've been working on and already have a WIP
> patch that makes it ~20x *faster* than pgAdmin 3 in some large test
> cases.
>> I don't see it - I see query that is running 14 seconds in v4 but 3.5 seconds in v3, seconds pass
>> before new query tab opens, seconds pass before browse tab opens, click properties count to 10 -
>> properties appear, table properties - You can see switches flipping on columns tab, try moving any
>> window - drags behind mouse, try put back accidentally detached tab, and so on...
>
> With the exception of the query tool, which I noted above, and the
> couple of seconds it takes to initialise, all of the above is so close
> to instant for me that I can't begin to time it.

Same pc, same db, 2 dbms - result are above. Sorry but "works for me" does not works for me...

>> In v3 3 dbs connected 4 query windows, 2 browse windows: private memory: 35 MBytes
>> In v4 1 db connected 1 query window: private memory: 600 MBytes
>> In v4 constant CPU usage around 10% (damn dashboard)
>
> https://www.pgadmin.org/faq/#5
>
> Oh? You have a better idea for something that we wanted to be able to
> run over the web? Java or Flash perhaps?
>> My objection for html is for standalone app - not webapp.
>> You know that every major databases does not use web as primary dbms yes? But even if we use it as
>> a server side only (like phppgadmin) it is still slow...
>
> I'm sorry - I thought we were free to write and give away at no cost
> whatever software we wanted.

As are we free to criticize it...
I asked You several times why did You choose html and now You have pulled - "it is free so we do
what we want...". So the rest of this discussion is pointless now...

> Seriously, this is Open Source. Contributors work on what they want,
> and clearly (based on the number of contributors we have now) more
> people want to work on newer technology that can be run in multiple
> different modes - and based on the download numbers, most users aren't
> disagreeing with our choices. We could have just quit and gone and
> done something else instead but instead, people have put in well over
> 20,000 hours of effort at this point to give you something for free.

I write software for the living... I choose technology best fitted for particular case - no because
it is modern/new/popular...
As for downloads - these are probably people like me who after years of feature lacking pgAdmin3 hoped for something better...

> I'm more than happy to help when bug reports are logged, and to make
> improvements where issues can be demonstrated and reproduced. However,
> if that isn't good enough for you then I'd suggest that maybe you
> would prefer to use an alternative tool.

You must understand one thing - first You stop developing v3, than release feature stripped v4, than demand to report issue/feature request You already know it is missing...
Maybe this news for You but people used this software for more than 10 years - they got used to functionality - what we've expected was improvement (new features) not regress...

--
Tomek


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

eric.hill
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7

Ø  Either way, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

 

This is something that a developer of software that people pay for would never say, even if we sometimes think it, because we value our customers.

 

Ø  You can't please everyone unfortunately but then a) it's free (despite being estimated at over $2M worth of work), and b) it's open source so those that are inclined can help improve it further.

 

When you feel the need to point out to people who are critical of your software that “it’s free”, the message you are sending is that because people aren’t paying for it, they don’t have a right to be critical, and you frankly aren’t that interested in their feedback.  That’s really one of the dangers of using free software – the developers don’t lose anything if you stop using it, so why should they care what you think?

 

Ø  In your case maybe you could explain how you're using it such that you see slow response.

 

One thing I’m doing is launching the software.  pgAdmin III launches and is ready to go in 3 seconds.  pgAdmin 4 takes 20 seconds.

 

The other thing I’m doing is expanding nodes in the Browser tree.  When I expand the Ðatabases node under my server, pgAdmin 4 takes about 3.5 seconds to respond.  pgAdmin 3 is instantaneous.  Similarly, when I expand a node for a specific database, pgAdmin 4 takes 5 seconds.  pgAdmin 3 is instantaneous.  With pgAdmin 4, I am constantly asking myself, “Wait, I thought I clicked that.  Did I miss it?”

 

Also, when I expand a database node, there is a Schemas subnode.  pgAdmin III immediately shows a “(7)” next to Schemas to tell me how many schemas there are.  pgAdmin 4 can’t manage to tell me how many schemas there are until after I have expanded Schemas, at which point I can count them myself.  So pgAdmin 4 is doing less than pgAdmin III and yet taking orders of magnitude longer.

 

I am running pgAdmin 4 on a Windows box, quad core CPU, 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD.

 

I seriously may go back to PostgreSQL 9.3 so that I can use pgAdmin III until I can wean myself off the tool.

 

Eric

 

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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Adam Brusselback

> I seriously may go back to PostgreSQL 9.3 so that I can use pgAdmin III until I can wean myself off the tool.

You don't have to revert your database version to use pgadmin III, the newest release works fine with Postgres 9.6, and there is also the BigSQL fork of pgadmin III which as far as I know will continue to support new releases.
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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Karl Sinn
In reply to this post by eric.hill

>
> One thing I’m doing is launching the software.  pgAdmin III launches and
> is ready to go in 3 seconds.  pgAdmin 4 takes 20 seconds.
>
>
>
> The other thing I’m doing is expanding nodes in the Browser tree.  When
> I expand the Ðatabases node under my server, pgAdmin 4 takes about 3.5
> seconds to respond.  pgAdmin 3 is instantaneous.  Similarly, when I
> expand a node for a specific database, pgAdmin 4 takes 5 seconds.
> pgAdmin 3 is instantaneous.  With pgAdmin 4, I am constantly asking
> myself, “Wait, I thought I clicked that.  Did I miss it?”
>
>
>
> Also, when I expand a database node, there is a Schemas subnode.
> pgAdmin III immediately shows a “(7)” next to Schemas to tell me how
> many schemas there are.  pgAdmin 4 can’t manage to tell me how many
> schemas there are until after I have expanded Schemas, at which point I
> can count them myself.  So pgAdmin 4 is doing less than pgAdmin III and
> yet taking orders of magnitude longer.
>


+1


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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Michal Kozusznik
In reply to this post by Tomek-3
On 19.5.2017 14:38, Tomek wrote:
> You must understand one thing - first You stop developing v3, than release feature stripped v4, than demand to report issue/feature request You already know it is missing...
> Maybe this news for You but people used this software for more than 10 years - they got used to functionality - what we've expected was improvement (new features) not regress...

Cannot agree more.
Apart from discussion about chosen technology and related impacts
(especially on user experience of desktop users), pgAdmin4 shouldn't be
yet published as stable release. Since pgA4 remains
feature-wise-incomplete comparing to pgA3, it should be called 'alpha'
and therefore it shouldn't be offered as replacement of pgA3.
In case it is intended to be something else than pgA3's successor, then
shouldn't be called pgAdmin (to avoid confusion while comparing features).

with regards

MK




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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

richard-3
In reply to this post by Adam Brusselback
On 2017-05-19 14:20, Adam Brusselback wrote:
>> I seriously may go back to PostgreSQL 9.3 so that I can use pgAdmin
> III until I can wean myself off the tool.
>  You don't have to revert your database version to use pgadmin III,
> the newest release works fine with Postgres 9.6, and there is also the
> BigSQL fork of pgadmin III which as far as I know will continue to
> support new releases.

Could anyone clarify this for me?

PostgreSQL & pgadmin are distinct projects right?

I installed pgadmin 4 on a windows machine earlier this week and,
leaving aside the fact that I dislike it, the installation worked. Today
I tried to find out how to install pgadmin 4 on a Linux machine and I
could only find installation methods that seemed to install all of
postgresql, both server & client application. Is this just my
misunderstanding of what's available?




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Re: making me love pgAdmin III

Michal Kozusznik
It means you don't have to switch into pgAdmin4 just because you are
using recent version of database.
pgAdmin3 v1.22.2 supports pg9.6 (at least it doesn't throw exceptions
for common tasks)
MK

On 19.5.2017 15:45, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 2017-05-19 14:20, Adam Brusselback wrote:
>>> I seriously may go back to PostgreSQL 9.3 so that I can use pgAdmin
>> III until I can wean myself off the tool.
>>  You don't have to revert your database version to use pgadmin III,
>> the newest release works fine with Postgres 9.6, and there is also the
>> BigSQL fork of pgadmin III which as far as I know will continue to
>> support new releases.
>
> Could anyone clarify this for me?
>
> PostgreSQL & pgadmin are distinct projects right?
>
> I installed pgadmin 4 on a windows machine earlier this week and,
> leaving aside the fact that I dislike it, the installation worked.
> Today I tried to find out how to install pgadmin 4 on a Linux machine
> and I could only find installation methods that seemed to install all
> of postgresql, both server & client application. Is this just my
> misunderstanding of what's available?
>
>
>
>


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