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Code of Conduct plan

Josh berkus
Community members:

A number of people have contacted the Core Team about taking action
regarding a Code of Conduct (CoC) for the project. After some
discussion, the plan we have come up with is below.

**Please do not reply-all to this email, as we do not wish to generate
additional list traffic regarding CoCs**

1. The Core Team will appoint an exploration committee which will look
at various proposals (including the one drafted on pgsql-general) for
CoCs and discuss them. This committee will include both major community
members and less central folks who have hands-on experience with CoCs
and community management issues.  If you know of PostgreSQL community
members who have relevant experience, please nominate them by emailing
the core team: [hidden email].

2. We will also hire a professional consultant to advise the committee
on CoC development, adoption, training, and enforcement.  Again, if
community members have a consultant to recommend, please email the core
team.

3. This committee will post a draft CoC or possibly a selection of draft
CoCs by or before late April for community comment.  Likely the
committee will be publishing drafts more frequently, but that will be up
to them to work out.

4. At the pgCon Community Unconference, and again at pgconf.EU, we will
have sessions where people can discuss and provide feedback about
proposed (or adopted) CoCs.  Possibly we will have CoC-related trainings
as well.

5. Once a draft is agreed upon, it will be circulated to our various
sub-communities for comment.

6. A "final" CoC will be endorsed by the committee and the Core Team
shortly after pgConf.EU, unless there is sufficently strong consensus to
adopt one before then.

Yes, we realize this is a long timeline.  The PostgreSQL Project has
never been about implementing things in a hurry; our practice has always
been to take all of the time required to develop the right feature the
right way.  Adopting a CoC is no different; if anything, we need to take
*more* time in order to get input from community members who do not
speak up frequently or assertively.

In the meantime, our policy remains: if you have experienced harassment
or feel that you are being treated unfairly by other project members,
email the Core Team and we will investigate your complaint and take
appropriate action.

Also, we want to thank Josh Drake for raising the CoC issue and getting
it off the TODO list and into process, and devising an initial "seed"
CoC.  Such things are all too easy to keep postponing.

Again, Please DO NOT comment on this plan on-list; one of the pieces of
feedback we have received loud and clear is that many community members
are unhappy with the amount of list traffic devoted to the subject of
CoCs.  As such, if you have comments on the plan above, please email the
core team instead of replying on-list, or wait for the committee and
address comments to them.

--Josh Berkus
  PostgreSQL Core Team


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Tom Lane-2
Josh Berkus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 1. The Core Team will appoint an exploration committee which will look
> at various proposals (including the one drafted on pgsql-general) for
> CoCs and discuss them.

To follow up on this ...

The Core Team are pleased to announce that Stacey Haysler has accepted
our invitation to chair the exploratory committee on a Postgres Code of
Conduct.  Stacey is very well qualified to do this, since she is a well
known member of the Postgres community and has had an extended career in
human resources, including creation and implementation of
anti-discrimination and anti-harassment policies.

Stacey will be reaching out to potential committee members over the next
few days or weeks.  Once the committee is assembled, they will devise
some way (possibly a new mailing list, though I don't want to pre-judge
it) for the wider community to have input into the discussions.
In the meantime, we ask that people continue to refrain from flooding
pgsql-general or other existing PG lists with CoC-related threads.
There will be a time and a place for those discussions, but not yet.

If you have interest or concerns about this process, you can contact
Stacey at [hidden email] or the Core Team at
[hidden email].

                        regards, tom lane


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Tom Lane-2
In reply to this post by Josh berkus
Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a
Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which
the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee
to draft a CoC [1].  That process has taken far longer than expected,
but the committee has not been idle.  They worked through many comments
and many drafts to produce a version that seems acceptable in the view
of the core team.  This final(?) draft can be found at

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct

We are now asking for a final round of community comments.
Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only).
If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to
[hidden email].

The initial membership of the CoC committee will be announced separately,
but shortly.

Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result
of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of
July 1 2018.

                        regards, tom lane

[1] https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/56A8516B.8000105@...

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Adrian Klaver-4
On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

> Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a
> Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which
> the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee
> to draft a CoC [1].  That process has taken far longer than expected,
> but the committee has not been idle.  They worked through many comments
> and many drafts to produce a version that seems acceptable in the view
> of the core team.  This final(?) draft can be found at
>
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
>
> We are now asking for a final round of community comments.
> Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only).
> If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to
> [hidden email].
>
> The initial membership of the CoC committee will be announced separately,
> but shortly.
>
> Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result
> of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of
> July 1 2018.

My comments:

1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem.
Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.

2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into
disrepute, ..."
This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen outside
the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be handled
where they occur not here.

3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered
offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such
conduct. "
Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people
these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to
have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed
behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it.

>
> regards, tom lane
>
> [1] https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/56A8516B.8000105@...
>
>


--
Adrian Klaver
[hidden email]

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Joshua D. Drake
In reply to this post by Tom Lane-2
On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote:

> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
>
> We are now asking for a final round of community comments.
> Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only).
> If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to
> [hidden email].

Thanks for all the efforts on this. It is nice to see us explicitly
moving toward modernizing our community policies and creating an openly
inclusive community. There are a couple of notes I have about this:

I think we need language that explicitly states that this is about
participation within postgresql.org only. It is not postgresql.org's
mission or purpose to police actions outside of their domain. The
following minor modification would work:

"To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community
interaction and participation within the Postgresql.org project."

There is no language that protects different political or social views.
In today's climate it is important especially as we are a worldwide
project. Something simple like the following should be enough:

"Examples of personal characteristics include, but are not limited to
age, race, national origin or ancestry, religion, political affiliation,
social class, gender, or sexual orientation."

JD

--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc
***  A fault and talent of mine is to tell it exactly how it is.  ***
PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://postgresconf.org
*****     Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *****

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Joshua D. Drake
In reply to this post by Adrian Klaver-4
On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:

>> My comments:
>>
>> 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of
>> problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.
>>
>> 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project
>> into disrepute, ..."
>> This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen
>> outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be
>> handled where they occur not here.

This is good point. There are those who would think that one has
performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar
sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on
the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.

It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that
committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo
chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.

>>
>> 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered
>> offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such
>> conduct. "

>> Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people
>> these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to
>> have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed
>> behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it.

"considered offensive by fellow members"

Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:

> I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to
> someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at that
> particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their
> knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied
> -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist"
> could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever

"snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive.
Which is correct?

> I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university that
> doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of
> the history of slavery.

The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the
terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore.

>
> I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my
> first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a
> technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they
> implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if
> I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object!

Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of
acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults).
Knowing your audience is important.

> Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government
> Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that are very
> Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they found the bonds
> were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene.
> The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the
> thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most
> Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive.

Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is
part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly
frowned upon.

> Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!
>

Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say
it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems
but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational.

JD


--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc
***  A fault and talent of mine is to tell it exactly how it is.  ***
PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://postgresconf.org
*****     Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *****

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Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan

gilberto.castillo
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake
El 2018-06-04 12:52, Joshua D. Drake escribió:

> On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
>
>> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
>>
>> We are now asking for a final round of community comments.
>> Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only).
>> If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to
>> [hidden email].
>
> Thanks for all the efforts on this. It is nice to see us explicitly
> moving toward modernizing our community policies and creating an
> openly inclusive community. There are a couple of notes I have about
> this:
>
> I think we need language that explicitly states that this is about
> participation within postgresql.org only. It is not postgresql.org's
> mission or purpose to police actions outside of their domain. The
> following minor modification would work:
>
> "To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community
> interaction and participation within the Postgresql.org project."
>
> There is no language that protects different political or social
> views. In today's climate it is important especially as we are a
> worldwide project. Something simple like the following should be
> enough:
>
> "Examples of personal characteristics include, but are not limited to
> age, race, national origin or ancestry, religion, political
> affiliation, social class, gender, or sexual orientation."

i don't know, because a check "Your agree ours rules", may enough.

Categorize, we will can have different interpretation.
> JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Tatsuo Ishii-3
In reply to this post by Tom Lane-2
> Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a
> Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which
> the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee
> to draft a CoC [1].  That process has taken far longer than expected,
> but the committee has not been idle.  They worked through many comments
> and many drafts to produce a version that seems acceptable in the view
> of the core team.  This final(?) draft can be found at
>
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
>
> We are now asking for a final round of community comments.
> Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only).
> If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to
> [hidden email].
>
> The initial membership of the CoC committee will be announced separately,
> but shortly.
>
> Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result
> of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of
> July 1 2018.
>
> regards, tom lane
>
> [1] https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/56A8516B.8000105@...

Do we want official translations of this? We allow local communities
do their own manual translations. However CoC is so important, I feel
like we need more for Coc. Good thing with CoC is, it is expected that
it would be stable (at least I hope so) and translation works when
it's changed is expected to be minimal, unlike the manual translation
works.

One concern is, who checks for the correctness of the translations. I
think committers could do the job since there are good number of
non-English native speakers in the group.

Best regards,
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Chris Travers-7
In reply to this post by Joshua D. Drake


On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:

My comments:

1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.

2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into disrepute, ..."
This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be handled where they occur not here.

This is good point. There are those who would think that one has performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.

It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.

If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.
 



3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such conduct. "

Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it.

"considered offensive by fellow members"

Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:

I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever

"snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. Which is correct?

I agree with both concerns in the above exchange.

This is an economic common project.  The goal should be for people to come together and act civilly.  Waging culture war using the code of conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides.
 


I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of the history of slavery.

The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore.


I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object!

Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). Knowing your audience is important.

I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and mature.  At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red MAGA hats.  And yet everyone managed to be civil.  We manage to do better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be proud of ourselves.
 


Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that are very Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene. The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive.

Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly frowned upon.

Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and used to addressing these sorts of issues.
 


Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!


Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational.


I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together.  Misunderstanding can happen.  But let's try to act in a collegial and generally respectful way around eachother. 

--
Best Regards,
Chris Travers
Database Administrator

Tel: +49 162 9037 210 | Skype: einhverfr | www.adjust.com 
Saarbrücker Straße 37a, 10405 Berlin

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Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan

gilberto.castillo
Hello,

Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from
country less earnings. For examplo Cuba.


El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió:

> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:
>>
>> My comments:
>>
>> 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of
>> problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.
>>
>> 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project
>> into disrepute, ..."
>> This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen
>> outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be
>> handled where they occur not here.
>
>  This is good point. There are those who would think that one has
> performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a
> similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case.
> This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.
>
> It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that
> committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo
> chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.
>
> If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and
> include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for
> it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.
>
>> 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered
>> offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such
>> conduct. "
>
>>> Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of
>>> people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with
>>> someone to have it called offensive. This section should be
>>> removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the
>>> paragraphs above it.
>
> "considered offensive by fellow members"
>
>  Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:
>
>> I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking
>> to someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at
>> that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get
>> their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender
>> is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers
>> in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm
>> suggesting that whoever
>
>  "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly
> offensive. Which is correct?
>
> I agree with both concerns in the above exchange.
>
> This is an economic common project.  The goal should be for people to
> come together and act civilly.  Waging culture war using the code of
> conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this
> goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides.
>
>>> I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university
>>> that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc,
>>> because of the history of slavery.
>>
>> The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use
>> the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore.
>>
>>> I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and
>>> "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of
>>> resolving a technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what
>>> I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously
>>> suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is
>>> conceivable that someone might object!
>>
>> Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of
>> acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults).
>> Knowing your audience is important.
>
> I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and
> mature.  At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with
> red MAGA hats.  And yet everyone managed to be civil.  We manage to do
> better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be
> proud of ourselves.
>
>>> Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell
>>> government Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that
>>> are very Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they
>>> found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found
>>> the gestures obscene. The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay
>>> gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger --
>>> nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional
>>> Greeks found them offensive.
>>
>> Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word
>> c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and
>> highly frowned upon.
>
> Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and
> used to addressing these sorts of issues.
>
>>> Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!
>>
>> Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you
>> wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That
>> too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the
>> restrictions rational.
>
> I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I
> think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work
> together.  Misunderstanding can happen.  But let's try to act in a
> collegial and generally respectful way around eachother.
>
> --
>
> Best Regards,
> Chris Travers
> Database Administrator
>
> Tel: +49 162 9037 210 | Skype: einhverfr | www.adjust.com [1]
> Saarbrücker Straße 37a, 10405 Berlin
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://www.adjust.com/

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Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan

gilberto.castillo
El 2018-06-05 10:54, [hidden email] escribió:

> Hello,
>
> Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from
> country less earnings.
>
>
> El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió:
>> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:
>>>
>>> My comments:
>>>
>>> 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of
>>> problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.
>>>
>>> 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project
>>> into disrepute, ..."
>>> This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen
>>> outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be
>>> handled where they occur not here.
>>
>>  This is good point. There are those who would think that one has
>> performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a
>> similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case.
>> This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.
>>
>> It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that
>> committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo
>> chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.
>>
>> If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and
>> include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for
>> it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.
>>
>>> 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered
>>> offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such
>>> conduct. "
>>
>>>> Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of
>>>> people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with
>>>> someone to have it called offensive. This section should be
>>>> removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the
>>>> paragraphs above it.
>>
>> "considered offensive by fellow members"
>>
>>  Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:
>>
>>> I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking
>>> to someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that I'm better at
>>> that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get
>>> their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender
>>> is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers
>>> in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm
>>> suggesting that whoever
>>
>>  "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly
>> offensive. Which is correct?
>>
>> I agree with both concerns in the above exchange.
>>
>> This is an economic common project.  The goal should be for people to
>> come together and act civilly.  Waging culture war using the code of
>> conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this
>> goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides.
>>
>>>> I'm talking to is my slave!  I heard of an American university
>>>> that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc,
>>>> because of the history of slavery.
>>>
>>> The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use
>>> the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore.
>>>
>>>> I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and
>>>> "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of
>>>> resolving a technical issue.  The people I say that to, know what
>>>> I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously
>>>> suggesting such conduct.  Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is
>>>> conceivable that someone might object!
>>>
>>> Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of
>>> acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults).
>>> Knowing your audience is important.
>>
>> I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and
>> mature.  At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with
>> red MAGA hats.  And yet everyone managed to be civil.  We manage to do
>> better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be
>> proud of ourselves.
>>
>>>> Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell
>>>> government Bonds.  They used two very common hand gestures that
>>>> are very Australian.  Bond sales dropped.  On investigation, they
>>>> found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found
>>>> the gestures obscene. The gestures?  Thumbs up, and the okay
>>>> gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger --
>>>> nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional
>>>> Greeks found them offensive.
>>>
>>> Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word
>>> c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and
>>> highly frowned upon.
>>
>> Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and
>> used to addressing these sorts of issues.
>>
>>>> Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour!
>>>
>>> Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you
>>> wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That
>>> too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the
>>> restrictions rational.
>>
>> I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I
>> think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work
>> together.  Misunderstanding can happen.  But let's try to act in a
>> collegial and generally respectful way around eachother.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Chris Travers
>> Database Administrator
>>
>> Tel: +49 162 9037 210 | Skype: einhverfr | www.adjust.com [1]
>> Saarbrücker Straße 37a, 10405 Berlin
>>
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] http://www.adjust.com/

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Joshua D. Drake
In reply to this post by Chris Travers-7
On 06/05/2018 07:45 AM, Chris Travers wrote:

>     It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that
>     committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo
>     chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.
>
>
> If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and
> include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for it
> to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.
>

+1


>     "considered offensive by fellow members"
>
>     Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:
>
>         I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when
>         talking to someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that
>         I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive
>         American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in
>         this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that
>         expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some
>         snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever
>
>
>     "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly
>     offensive. Which is correct?
>
>
> I agree with both concerns in the above exchange.
>
> This is an economic common project.  The goal should be for people to
> come together and act civilly.  Waging culture war using the code of
> conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this
> goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides.
>

[snip]

>
>     Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of
>     acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults).
>     Knowing your audience is important.
>
>
> I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and
> mature.  At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red
> MAGA hats.  And yet everyone managed to be civil.  We manage to do
> better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be
> proud of ourselves.

To be fair, those were South Africans but yes, nobody gave them any
public grief as far as I know.

>
>     Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't
>     say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has
>     problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions
>     rational.
>
>
> I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think
> the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together.  
> Misunderstanding can happen.  But let's try to act in a collegial and
> generally respectful way around eachother.

+1

JD




--
Command Prompt, Inc. || http://the.postgres.company/ || @cmdpromptinc
***  A fault and talent of mine is to tell it exactly how it is.  ***
PostgreSQL centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Advocate: @amplifypostgres || Learn: https://postgresconf.org
*****     Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own.   *****

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Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan

gilberto.castillo
O.K,

Remember my Country Please!!!!.


El 2018-06-05 11:29, Joshua D. Drake escribió:

> On 06/05/2018 07:45 AM, Chris Travers wrote:
>
>>     It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that
>>     committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an
>> echo
>>     chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this
>> community.
>>
>>
>> If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and
>> include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for
>> it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.
>>
>
> +1
>
>
>>     "considered offensive by fellow members"
>>
>>     Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here:
>>
>>         I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when
>>         talking to someone on a technical subject.  In the sense that
>>         I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive
>>         American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in
>>         this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that
>>         expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some
>>         snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever
>>
>>
>>     "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly
>>     offensive. Which is correct?
>>
>>
>> I agree with both concerns in the above exchange.
>>
>> This is an economic common project.  The goal should be for people to
>> come together and act civilly.  Waging culture war using the code of
>> conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this
>> goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides.
>>
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>>     Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of
>>     acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like
>> adults).
>>     Knowing your audience is important.
>>
>>
>> I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and
>> mature.  At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with
>> red MAGA hats.  And yet everyone managed to be civil.  We manage to do
>> better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be
>> proud of ourselves.
>
> To be fair, those were South Africans but yes, nobody gave them any
> public grief as far as I know.
>
>>
>>     Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you
>> wouldn't
>>     say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has
>>     problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions
>>     rational.
>>
>>
>> I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I
>> think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work
>> together.  Misunderstanding can happen.  But let's try to act in a
>> collegial and generally respectful way around eachother.
>
> +1
>
> JD

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Stephen Frost
In reply to this post by Chris Travers-7
Greetings,

* Magnus Hagander ([hidden email]) wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:45 PM, Chris Travers <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and
> > include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for it to
> > be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.
>
> It will be. This is the PostgreSQL *global* development group and project,
> after all. Yes, there is definitely a slant in the project in general
> towards the US side, as is true in many other such projects, but in general
> we have decent coverage of other cultures and countries as well. We can't
> cover them all  on the committee (that would make for a gicantic
> committee), but we can cover it with people who are used to communicating
> and working with people from other areas as well, which makes for a better
> understanding.
>
> It won't be perfect in the first attempt, of course, but that one is
> covered.
This drives to a point which I was thinking about also- what is needed
on the committee are people who are worldly to the point of
understanding that there are different cultures and viewpoints, and
knowing when and how to ask during an investigation to get an
understanding of if the issue is one of cultural differences (leading
potentially to education and not to reprimand, as discussed in the CoC),
something else, or perhaps both.

The CoC committee doesn't need to be comprimised of individuals from
every culture to which the community extends, as that quickly becomes
untenable.

I'm confident that the Core team will work to ensure that the initial
committee is comprised of such individuals and that both Core and the
subsequent CoC committees will work to maintain that.

Thanks!

Stephen

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Sven R. Kunze-2
In reply to this post by Tom Lane-2
Hi PostgreSQL Community,

some points I like to make mainly because of observations of how other
open source projects handle this topic:


1) CoC might result in developers leaving projects
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html

2) CoC might result in not so equal peers and friends, might result in a
committee which feels above their peers, and might promote conceit and
denunciation. That is why some projects choose not to have one
https://freie-software.org/verein/coc.html - they say: "we're friends -
that's our CoC, more would be harmful" [1]

3) https://shiromarieke.github.io/coc.html explains why there's no safe
space and CoC won't change that (she's a queer woman who experienced
harassment and sexual assault)


In related discussions, people recurringly ask not to establish a
secondary judicial system but to use the already existing ones.


I hope these points can influence what is in the CoC or whether there
will a CoC at all.
Personally, I find 2) a very good case against CoC (although I like the
"we're friends - that's our CoC, more would be harmful").


Best,
Sven


On 03.06.2018 20:29, Tom Lane wrote:
> Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a
> Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which
> the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee
> to draft a CoC [1].  That process has taken far longer than expected,
> but the committee has not been idle.  They worked through many comments
> and many drafts to produce a version that seems acceptable in the view
> of the core team.  This final(?) draft can be found at
>
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct

[1] Appendix - Google translation of the CoC of Freie Software:

Code of Conduct
Don't have it. Don't want to have.

That's the short version. The long version follows.

A "Code of Conduct" is a code of conduct in the sense of a set of norms
intended to determine the behavior of addressees of the Code.

Thoughts on the normalization of the self-evident
If one reads current, relevant regulations, one finds that normal
self-evident behaviors are normalized there. What is required there is
the attitude and behavior of a reasonably reasonable, reasonably well
behaved person.

That seems remarkable. Rules are set up when there is a risk that they
will be broken. You should act on the addressee from the outside,
because you fear that he will not behave properly without this impact.

Such a framework thus says something about the constitution of the
community or society to which the rules apply. In this case, a
reasonable behavior is obviously not (of course) obvious.

Among friends, the behaviors and attitudes described in the relevant
regulations, such as respect, attention and helpfulness,
non-discrimination, the will to cooperate, rule-free intercourse, etc.,
are self-evident. Friends behave as each other as required in these
rules. At least most. If not always.

The biggest lump in the whole country ...
The relevant regulations then provide for the appointment of persons or
bodies to whom, if one believes the rules have been violated, one can
turn to oneself.

In most cases such a complaint is permissible not only in case of
personal concern, but also if one thinks that the rules have been
violated to the detriment of one or the other. Experience teaches that
this often challenges behaviors that can kill any friendship. Knowing
better and being feeling informers usually have only like-minded people
as social contact.

But we do not want to promote either conceit or denunciation.

If someone does not behave as it is self-evident, then there are
reasons. These can be different types. A clear word among friends in
private or in a small circle is then helpful - for the "victim", as well
as for the "perpetrator". The latter deserves respect,
non-discrimination, attention, helpfulness and understanding. The latter
should actually be self-evident, but it is often not the case when
executing a Code of Conduct.

Nor is a rule-free, friendly dealing with the accused possible. The
roles of the judge and a friend are incompatible. Friends meet at eye
level; the judge has power and authority to exercise, even if he acquits.

Penalties among friends?
Finally, a Code of Conduct will include a sanctioning apparatus to
sanction undesirable behavior. Deliberate addition of evils
(punishments) among friends is a contradiction in terms.

 From this, it can be concluded that the moment a Code of Conduct takes
effect, the friendship is already over. When we get to that point, we
should dissolve our club, because then we failed - all together.

Therefore, we do not need and do not want a code of conduct in the sense
of a set of rules.

Resistance to unreasonableness
Sometimes, in recent times, the demand for a code of conduct in the form
of a corresponding set of rules is unfortunately linked with a
(financial) aid offer. Help under such a condition we refuse.

Freedom, as we want to understand and live it, occasionally requires
resistance to the imposition of doing something unreasonable and harmful.

Respectful help and patronage are incompatible. Freedom requires and
requires maturity. We can not propagate freedom and accept paternalism.

We are friends. That is already in the name of our association. This is
our "Code of Conduct". That is enough. More would be harmful.

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RE: Code of Conduct plan

Ozz Nixon
Sorry...

> 1) CoC might result in developers leaving projects


        I know this on going regurgitation is going to cause my team to leave the project, right around 100 posts on this off topic topic.... it was bad enough when the original idea came up (2 years ago I think). It used to be exciting to sit back and review the day or weeks posts... not much anymore.

Regards,
Ozz


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Peter Geoghegan-4
In reply to this post by Sven R. Kunze-2
On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sven R. Kunze <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 1) CoC might result in developers leaving projects
> http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html

This guy left LLVM for several reasons. The pertinent reason for us
was that he had to agree to a code of conduct in order to attend
conferences, which he found to be unacceptable. He did not have to
agree that the idea of a code of conduct was a good one, though. It
would have been perfectly possible for him to be opposed in principle
to the idea of a CoC, while also formally agreeing to it and attending
those conferences. I gather that his objections were around questions
of unintended consequences, the role of a certain authority to assess
violations of the CoC, and so on (I surmise that he was not actually
opposed to or constrained by any of the specific rules around content
in technical presentations and so on).

I for one accept that these may have been reasonable concerns, even
though I don't really agree, since the LLVM CoC seems quite
reasonable. Anybody that participates in an open source community soon
learns that their opinion on almost any matter may not be the one that
prevails. There are often differences of opinion on -hackers that seem
to fundamentally be down to a difference in values. We still manage to
make it work, somehow.

> 2) CoC might result in not so equal peers and friends, might result in a
> committee which feels above their peers, and might promote conceit and
> denunciation.

I think that having a code of conduct is better than not having one,
and I think that the one that we came up with is appropriate and
proportionate. We could speculate all day about specific unintended
consequences that may or may not follow. That doesn't seem very
constructive, though. Besides, the time for that has passed.

> In related discussions, people recurringly ask not to establish a secondary
> judicial system but to use the already existing ones.

I don't follow. Practically any organized group has rules around
conduct, with varying degrees of formality, means of enforcement, etc.
Naturally, the rules across disparate groups vary widely for all kinds
of reasons. Formalizing and being more transparent about how this
works seems like the opposite of paternalism to me.

--
Peter Geoghegan

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Christophe Pettus-2

> On Jun 5, 2018, at 15:20, Peter Geoghegan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't follow. Practically any organized group has rules around
> conduct, with varying degrees of formality, means of enforcement, etc.

I believe the objection is to setting up a separate CoC committee, rather than using the core team as the enforcement mechanism.

This is more important than may be obvious.  Having a separation of the CoC committee and the organization that sets up and supervises the CoC committee is very important to prevent the perception, or the fact, that the CoC enforcement mechanism is a Star Chamber that is answerable only to itself.  It also allows for an appeal mechanism.

--
-- Christophe Pettus
   [hidden email]


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Stephen Frost
In reply to this post by Tom Lane-2
Greetings,

* Tom Lane ([hidden email]) wrote:
> Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result
> of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of
> July 1 2018.

We seem to be a bit past that timeline...  Do we have any update on when
this will be moving forward?

Or did I miss something?

Thanks!

Stephen

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Tom Lane-2
Stephen Frost <[hidden email]> writes:
> * Tom Lane ([hidden email]) wrote:
>> Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result
>> of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of
>> July 1 2018.

> We seem to be a bit past that timeline...  Do we have any update on when
> this will be moving forward?

> Or did I miss something?

Nope, you didn't.  Folks have been on holiday which made it hard to keep
forward progress going, particularly with respect to selecting the initial
committee members.  Now that Magnus is back on shore, I hope we can
wrap it up quickly --- say by the end of August.

                        regards, tom lane

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