Code of Conduct plan

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Code of Conduct plan

Josh berkus
Community members:

A number of people have contacted the Core Team about taking action
regarding a Code of Conduct (CoC) for the project. After some
discussion, the plan we have come up with is below.

**Please do not reply-all to this email, as we do not wish to generate
additional list traffic regarding CoCs**

1. The Core Team will appoint an exploration committee which will look
at various proposals (including the one drafted on pgsql-general) for
CoCs and discuss them. This committee will include both major community
members and less central folks who have hands-on experience with CoCs
and community management issues.  If you know of PostgreSQL community
members who have relevant experience, please nominate them by emailing
the core team: [hidden email].

2. We will also hire a professional consultant to advise the committee
on CoC development, adoption, training, and enforcement.  Again, if
community members have a consultant to recommend, please email the core
team.

3. This committee will post a draft CoC or possibly a selection of draft
CoCs by or before late April for community comment.  Likely the
committee will be publishing drafts more frequently, but that will be up
to them to work out.

4. At the pgCon Community Unconference, and again at pgconf.EU, we will
have sessions where people can discuss and provide feedback about
proposed (or adopted) CoCs.  Possibly we will have CoC-related trainings
as well.

5. Once a draft is agreed upon, it will be circulated to our various
sub-communities for comment.

6. A "final" CoC will be endorsed by the committee and the Core Team
shortly after pgConf.EU, unless there is sufficently strong consensus to
adopt one before then.

Yes, we realize this is a long timeline.  The PostgreSQL Project has
never been about implementing things in a hurry; our practice has always
been to take all of the time required to develop the right feature the
right way.  Adopting a CoC is no different; if anything, we need to take
*more* time in order to get input from community members who do not
speak up frequently or assertively.

In the meantime, our policy remains: if you have experienced harassment
or feel that you are being treated unfairly by other project members,
email the Core Team and we will investigate your complaint and take
appropriate action.

Also, we want to thank Josh Drake for raising the CoC issue and getting
it off the TODO list and into process, and devising an initial "seed"
CoC.  Such things are all too easy to keep postponing.

Again, Please DO NOT comment on this plan on-list; one of the pieces of
feedback we have received loud and clear is that many community members
are unhappy with the amount of list traffic devoted to the subject of
CoCs.  As such, if you have comments on the plan above, please email the
core team instead of replying on-list, or wait for the committee and
address comments to them.

--Josh Berkus
  PostgreSQL Core Team


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Tom Lane-2
Josh Berkus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 1. The Core Team will appoint an exploration committee which will look
> at various proposals (including the one drafted on pgsql-general) for
> CoCs and discuss them.

To follow up on this ...

The Core Team are pleased to announce that Stacey Haysler has accepted
our invitation to chair the exploratory committee on a Postgres Code of
Conduct.  Stacey is very well qualified to do this, since she is a well
known member of the Postgres community and has had an extended career in
human resources, including creation and implementation of
anti-discrimination and anti-harassment policies.

Stacey will be reaching out to potential committee members over the next
few days or weeks.  Once the committee is assembled, they will devise
some way (possibly a new mailing list, though I don't want to pre-judge
it) for the wider community to have input into the discussions.
In the meantime, we ask that people continue to refrain from flooding
pgsql-general or other existing PG lists with CoC-related threads.
There will be a time and a place for those discussions, but not yet.

If you have interest or concerns about this process, you can contact
Stacey at [hidden email] or the Core Team at
[hidden email].

                        regards, tom lane


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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Magnus Hagander-2
In reply to this post by Josh berkus


On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:45 PM, Chris Travers <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:

My comments:

1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below.

2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into disrepute, ..."
This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be handled where they occur not here.

This is good point. There are those who would think that one has performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee.

It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community.

If I may suggest:  The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world.  The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint.

It will be. This is the PostgreSQL *global* development group and project, after all. Yes, there is definitely a slant in the project in general towards the US side, as is true in many other such projects, but in general we have decent coverage of other cultures and countries as well. We can't cover them all  on the committee (that would make for a gicantic committee), but we can cover it with people who are used to communicating and working with people from other areas as well, which makes for a better understanding.

It won't be perfect in the first attempt, of course, but that one is covered.

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Dave Page-7
In reply to this post by Josh berkus


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:10 PM, James Keener <[hidden email]> wrote:
I understand the concern, however, if you look at how attacks happen
it is frequently through other sites. Specifically under/poorly
moderated sites. For specific examples, people who have issues with
people on Quora will frequently go after them on Facebook and Twitter.

these aren't a solution looking for a problem. If we just want to look
at the clusterfuck that is happening in the reddis community right now
we can see conversations spilling onto twitter and into ad hominem
vitriol.

You haven't established that this is both 1) the PG mailing list's problem
and that 2) this can't and won't be used to retaliate against those holding
unpopular viewpoints but aren't specifically harassing anyone.

Now, you may say that (2) would be rejected by the committee, but I would
counter that it's still a stain on me and something that will forever appear
along side my name in search results and that the amount of time and
stress it'd take me to defend myself would make my voluntarily leaving
the community, which would be seen as an admission of guilt, my only
option.

If you had read the policy, you would know that wouldn't happen as reports and details of reports are to be kept confidential.
 

People are shitheads. People are assholes. We're not agreeing to join
some organization and sign an ethics clause when signing up for the mailing
list.  The current moderators can already remove bad actors from the list.
How they act outside of the list is non of this list's concern.

The lists are just one of many different ways people in this community interact.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Dave Page-7
In reply to this post by Josh berkus


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Adrian Klaver <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9/14/18 6:59 AM, Robert Eckhardt wrote:
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 9:41 AM, Adrian Klaver
<[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9/14/18 1:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote:


I really have to object to this addition:
"This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members,
whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org <http://postgresql.org>
infrastructure, so long as there is not another Code of Conduct that takes
precedence (such as a conference's Code of Conduct)."


I second that objection. It is not in PGDG's remit to cure the world, for
whatever form of cure you ascribe to. This is especially true as 'community
member' has no strict definition.

I understand the concern, however, if you look at how attacks happen
it is frequently through other sites. Specifically under/poorly
moderated sites. For specific examples, people who have issues with
people on Quora will frequently go after them on Facebook and Twitter.

these aren't a solution looking for a problem. If we just want to look
at the clusterfuck that is happening in the reddis community right now
we can see conversations spilling onto twitter and into ad hominem
vitriol.

Ask yourself, if this was a government agency tracking your speech across platforms would you be as approving? Personally I find the whole thing creepy.

No one is tracking anything as part of the CoC. That's nothing but a straw man argument.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Dave Page-7
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:21 PM, James Keener <[hidden email]> wrote:

Now, you may say that (2) would be rejected by the committee, but I would
counter that it's still a stain on me and something that will forever appear
along side my name in search results and that the amount of time and
stress it'd take me to defend myself would make my voluntarily leaving
the community, which would be seen as an admission of guilt, my only
option.

If you had read the policy, you would know that wouldn't happen as reports and details of reports are to be kept confidential.

That doesn't mean I won't be strung along and it doesn't mean that the attacker can't release those details. Remember, I'm worried
about politically motivated attacks, and attacks meant to silence opposing viewpoints, not legitimate instances of harassment.

Sure, but an attacker can do that now. Having the CoC doesn't change anything there, though it does give us a framework to deal with it.
 
 
 

People are shitheads. People are assholes. We're not agreeing to join
some organization and sign an ethics clause when signing up for the mailing
list.  The current moderators can already remove bad actors from the list.
How they act outside of the list is non of this list's concern.

The lists are just one of many different ways people in this community interact.

So? We interact with people outside of specific groups all the time. Baring specific
agreements to the contrary, why should any one group claim responsibility of my
personal business?

If that business is publicly bringing the project into disrepute, or harassing other community members and they approach us about it, then it becomes our business.

If it's unrelated to PostgreSQL, then it's your personal business and not something the project would get involved in.

--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

James Keener
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7
> Community is people who joined it

We're not a "community." We're people using email to get help with or discuss technical aspects of PostgreSQL. The types of discussions that would normally be held within a "community" would be entirely off-topic here.  We should be professional to each other here; we don't need to be buddies. There is a clear difference between "professionalism" and "community". A document governing interactions on this list is within the right of the moderation, but leaking into the "real world" is an abomination and perversion of what this group is.

My church group is 100% within their right to kick me out of teaching Sunday School if I were to have an affair. Teaching Sunday School is an act taking place as part of a community of people with a shared belief and culture. My job would 100% not be within their right to fire me for having an affair, as it's not a community, but a professional environment and my personal life is just that: personal. (Baring an ethics clauses signed when joining, I guess?)

Jim


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Ilya Kosmodemiansky <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 14. Sep 2018, at 16:17, Dave Page <[hidden email]> wrote:


The lists are just one of many different ways people in this community interact.

I could only heavily +1 this. I can get from where comes the idea that community is only what happens just on postgresql.org or just on some other channel community uses. Community is people who joined it and CoC supposed to apply even if people use analogue telephones. This is about communication, not about communication channels. 



--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Dave Page-7
In reply to this post by Josh berkus


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:37 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 09/14/2018 07:14 AM, Dave Page wrote:


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote:

I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all been moving.
The core team has now agreed to some revisions to the draft CoC based on
the comments in this thread; see

https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct

(That's the updated text, but you can use the diff tool on the page
history tab to see the changes from the previous draft.)

I really have to object to this addition:
"This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members, whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org infrastructure, so long as there is not another Code of Conduct that takes precedence (such as a conference's Code of Conduct)."

That covers things like public twitter messages over live political controversies which might not be personally directed.   At least if one is going to go that route, one ought to *also* include a safe harbor for non-personally-directed discussions of philosophy, social issues, and politics.  Otherwise, I think this is asking for trouble.  See, for example, what happened with Opalgate and how this could be seen to encourage use of this to silence political controversies unrelated to PostgreSQL.

I think this is a complicated issue. On the one hand, postgresql.org has no business telling people how to act outside of postgresql.org. Full stop.

I'm going to regret jumping in here, but...

I disagree. If a community member decides to join forums for other software and then strongly promotes PostgreSQL to the point that they become abusive or offensive to people making other software choices, then they are clearly bringing the project into disrepute and we should have every right to sanction them by preventing them participating in our project in whatever ways are deemed appropriate.

We all know that PostgreSQL is the only database we should use and anybody using a different one just hasn't been enlightened yet. :P

I think we need to define community member. I absolutely see your point of the individual is a contributor but community member is rather ethereal in this context don't you think? 

There are some fuzzy edges I guess (e.g. Slack), but in my mind it's always been anyone who participates in any of the projects communications channels.


--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
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Fwd: Code of Conduct plan

James Keener
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7
I didn't realize they had replied personally to me.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: James Keener <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Code of Conduct plan
To: Dave Page <[hidden email]>


If that business is publicly bringing the project into disrepute, or harassing other community members and they approach us about it, then it becomes our business.

If it's unrelated to PostgreSQL, then it's your personal business and not something the project would get involved in.


And yet, none of that is made clear or establish or even hinted at in the current CoC. Also, may I refer you to https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 as a scenario in which an outside conversation can leak in and become the business of the group?

Jim

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Dave Page-7
In reply to this post by James Keener


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:41 PM, James Keener <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Community is people who joined it

We're not a "community." We're people using email to get help with or discuss technical aspects of PostgreSQL. The types of discussions that would normally be held within a "community" would be entirely off-topic here.  We should be professional to each other here; we don't need to be buddies. There is a clear difference between "professionalism" and "community". A document governing interactions on this list is within the right of the moderation, but leaking into the "real world" is an abomination and perversion of what this group is.

To many of us, we absolutely are a community. Remember, there are people here who have been around for 20+ years, of which many have become close friends, having started working on PostgreSQL as a hobby. We have always seen the project as a community of like-minded technologists, and welcome others that wish to join, whether just to ask a single question or to hang around for the next 20 years. I do see your viewpoint, but I would counter that coming here for help (for example) is quite different from calling tech support at a vendor.
 

My church group is 100% within their right to kick me out of teaching Sunday School if I were to have an affair. Teaching Sunday School is an act taking place as part of a community of people with a shared belief and culture. My job would 100% not be within their right to fire me for having an affair, as it's not a community, but a professional environment and my personal life is just that: personal. (Baring an ethics clauses signed when joining, I guess?)

Jim


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Ilya Kosmodemiansky <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 14. Sep 2018, at 16:17, Dave Page <[hidden email]> wrote:


The lists are just one of many different ways people in this community interact.

I could only heavily +1 this. I can get from where comes the idea that community is only what happens just on postgresql.org or just on some other channel community uses. Community is people who joined it and CoC supposed to apply even if people use analogue telephones. This is about communication, not about communication channels. 



--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company




--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

James Keener

To many of us, we absolutely are a community. Remember, there are people here who have been around for 20+ years, of which many have become close friends, having started working on PostgreSQL as a hobby. We have always seen the project as a community of like-minded technologists, and welcome others that wish to join, whether just to ask a single question or to hang around for the next 20 years. I do see your viewpoint, but I would counter that coming here for help (for example) is quite different from calling tech support at a vendor.

I fail to see how that makes everyone here part of a community anymore than I'm part of the "community" of regulars at a bar I walk into for the first time.

As I said, the rules can and should apply within the list, but applying them outside the list is odd and wreaks of authoritarianism.

Jim
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

James Keener
In reply to this post by Dave Page-7


Yes, I believe so. Isn't that what "To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community interaction and participation in the project’s work and the community at large." basically says?
 
No? What's the "community at large"? To me that sounds like "all interactions" whether or not they're about postgres.

Jim
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Dave Page-7
In reply to this post by Josh berkus


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:55 PM, James Keener <[hidden email]> wrote:


Yes. They can. The people who make the majority of the contributions to the software can decide what happens, because without them there is no software. If you want to spend 20 years of your life

So everyone who moderates this group and that will be part of the CoC committee will have had to have dedicated their life of pg?

Sure, they own the servers, they make the rules. I get it. I'm not entirely opposed to it, even if I think it's silly to ram something down the rest of the groups throats.

Jim

PS: Also, what's with the personal replies? If you don't want to say what you want to the whole group, I don't really have an interest in talking to you personally.

I've had one off-list personal reply in this thread... from you :-p

--
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Evan Macbeth
In reply to this post by Josh berkus
I hesitate to exacerbate what is a society-wide debate that is being worked out across organizations across the spectrum, but if I may provide a thought for consideration.

The framing and language of the Code of Conduct, as written and proposed, includes a large number of checkpoints to protect those accused of violations of the code of conduct: Confidentiality, the Good Faith clause that actually puts risk on those who report behavior under the code, a scaling of consequences that is weighted *heavily* towards providing second and third chances to those who may be accused of violating the code. 

In the examples that have been raised in this discussion, it would seem to me to be unreasonable for an investigation to result in a finding that the code had been violated to the extent that any kind of public consequence would be warranted. Indeed, were the examples cited to be adjudicated under this code, I am confident we as a community would discover the code to be working as designed, rather than the opposite. 

If the objection is to the possibility of being reported at all for your own behavior that you believe is not in violation, that's a different matter. But if that is the concern, than the objection is not to *this* code of conduct but to ANY code of conduct, because any code of conduct is inherently going to introduce risk of being reported for everyone. And if you believe strongly that a given statement you may have made is not objectionable...you should be willing to defend it in an adjudication investigation. If you are not willing to defend it in an adjudication investigation, then you are tacitly (at least) acknowledging the statement was not in keeping withe standards represented by the code.

This code of conduct as written, in my opinion, merely holds every member of our community responsible for owning our words and behavior, and the consequences thereof. I believe that we are adult enough to be willing to take responsibility for ourselves.

Just my $0.02.

Evan Macbeth
 

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 8:50 AM, James Keener <[hidden email]> wrote:
I find a lot of neo-con/trumpian political stances moronic, short-sighted, and anti-intellectual and therefore consider them offensive, an affront on my way of life, and a stain on my country.

1) Can I report anyone holding such views and discussing them on a 3rd party forum?

2) Could I be reported for saying the above on a 3rd party forum?

Obviously the pg mailing list isn't a place for such discussion, but is being a member of this community a deal with the devil to give up my right to free speech elsewhere?

Jim


On September 14, 2018 6:10:47 AM EDT, Chris Travers <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 11:45 AM Ilya Kosmodemiansky <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Chris Travers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I really have to object to this addition:
> "This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members,
> whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org infrastructure, so long
> as there is not another Code of Conduct that takes precedence (such as a
> conference's Code of Conduct)."
>
> That covers things like public twitter messages over live political
> controversies which might not be personally directed.   At least if one is
> going to go that route, one ought to *also* include a safe harbor for
> non-personally-directed discussions of philosophy, social issues, and
> politics.  Otherwise, I think this is asking for trouble.  See, for example,
> what happened with Opalgate and how this could be seen to encourage use of
> this to silence political controversies unrelated to PostgreSQL.

I think, this point has nothing to do with _correct_ discussions or
public tweets.

If one community member tweets publicly and in a way which abuses
other community members, it is obvious CoC violation. It is hard to
imagine healthy community if someone interacts with others  correctly
on the list or at a conference because the CoC stops him doing things
which he will do on private capacity to the same people when CoC
doesnt apply.

If someone reports CoC violation just because other community member's
_correct_ public tweet or whatsoever  expressed different
political/philosophical/religious views, this is a quite different
story. I suppose CoC committee and/or Core team in this case should
explain the reporter the purpose of CoC rather than automatically
enforce it.

So first, I think what the clause is trying to do is address cases where harassment targeting a particular community member takes place outside the infrastructure and frankly ensuring that the code of conduct applies in these cases is important and something I agree with.

However, let's look at problem cases:

"I am enough of a Marxist to see gender as a qualitative relationship to biological reproduction and maybe economic production too." 

I can totally imagine someone arguing that such a tweet might be abusive, and certainly not "correct."

Or consider:

"The effort to push GLBT rights on family-business economies is nothing more than an effort at corporate neocolonialism."

Which would make the problem more clear.  Whether or not a comment like that occurring outside postgresql.org infrastructure would be considered "correct" or "abusive" is ultimately a political decision and something which, once that fight is picked, has no reasonable solution in an international and cross-cultural product (where issues like sexuality, economics, and how gender and individualism intersect will vary dramatically across members around the world).  There are people who will assume that both of the above statements are personally offensive and attacks on the basis of gender identity even if they are critiques of political agendas severable from that.  Worse, the sense of attack themselves could be seen as attacks on culture or religions of other participants.

Now neither of these comments would be tolerated as viewpoints expressed on PostgreSQL.org email lists because they are off-topic, but once one expands the code of conduct in this way they become fair game.  Given the way culture war issues are shaping up particularly in the US, I think one has to be very careful not to set an expectation that this applies to literally everything that anyone does anywhere.

So maybe something more like:

"Conduct that occurs outside the postgresql.org infrastructure is not automatically excluded from enforcement of this code of conduct.  In particular if other parties are unable to act, and if it is, on balance, in the interest of the global community to apply the code of conduct, then the code of conduct shall apply."

> --
> Best Wishes,
> Chris Travers
>
> Efficito:  Hosted Accounting and ERP.  Robust and Flexible.  No vendor
> lock-in.
> http://www.efficito.com/learn_more


--
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

Efficito:  Hosted Accounting and ERP.  Robust and Flexible.  No vendor lock-in.

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.



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Re: Code of Conduct plan

James Keener
And if you believe strongly that a given statement you may have made is not objectionable...you should be willing to defend it in an adjudication investigation.

So because someone doesn't like what I say in a venue 100% separate from postgres,  I have to subject myself, and waste my time, defending actions in this (and potentially other groups who would also adopt overly broad CoC) group.

One of the biggest drivers of plea-bargains for innocent people in the US justice system is the expense of having to defend yourself. I find that to be a travesty; why are we duplicating that at a smaller level?

Jim
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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Peter Geoghegan-4
In reply to this post by Josh berkus
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 7:19 AM, Joshua D. Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sure and that is unfortunate but isn't it up to the individual to deal with
> it through appropriate channels for whatever platform they are on? All of
> these platforms are:
>
> 1. Voluntary to use
> 2. Have their own Terms of Use and complaint departments
> 3. If it is abuse there are laws
>
> I agree that within Postgresql.org we must have a professional code of
> conduct but the idea that an arbitrary committee appointed by an unelected
> board can decide the fate of a community member based on actions outside of
> the community is a bit authoritarian don't you think?

The choice of the committee members is hardly arbitrary. Having
committee members be appointed by core is more or less consistent with
how the community has always dealt with disciplinary issues. The
criteria used by core were discussed quite openly. While the risk that
the committee will yield their power in an "authoritarian" way seems
very small, it cannot be ruled out entirely. In fact, it hasn't been
ruled out by the draft CoC itself.

No CoC can possibly provide for every conceivable situation. Somebody
has to interpret the rules, and it has to be possible to impose
sanctions when the CoC is violated -- otherwise, what's the point?
There are several checks and balances in place, and I for one have
confidence in the process as outlined. It's imperfect, but quite a lot
better than either the status quo, or a platitude about inclusivity.

--
Peter Geoghegan

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Re: Code of Conduct plan

Olivier Gautherot
In reply to this post by James Keener
Dear all,

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:18 PM Tom Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:
Robert Haas <[hidden email]> writes:
> It's not clear to me that there IS a general consensus here.  It looks
> to me like the unelected core team got together and decided to impose
> a vaguely-worded code of conduct on a vaguely-defined group of people
> covering not only their work on PostgreSQL but also their entire life.

There's been quite a lot of input, from quite a lot of people, dating
back at least as far as a well-attended session at PGCon 2016.  I find
it quite upsetting to hear accusations that core is imposing this out
of nowhere.  From my perspective, we're responding to a real need
voiced by other people, not so much by us.

> However, I also don't think it matters very much.

Yeah, this.  The PG community is mostly nice people, AFAICT.  I'll be
astonished (and worried) if the CoC committee finds much to do.  We're
implementing this mostly to make newcomers to the project feel that
it's a safe space.

It's also worth reminding people that this is v1.0 of the CoC document.
We plan to revisit it in a year or so, and thereafter as needed, to
improve anything that's causing problems or not working well.

                        regards, tom lane

I must admit that I'm impressed by the huge amount of contributions to this thread and, to be honest, it is the only one I have witnessed that would have deserved a CoC. I had a quick look at the proposal and it sounds to me like the team is trying to handle excesses - as long as no one complains, I would bet that they won't even chime in.

One thing to keep in mind is this simple definition: "One person's freedom ends where another's begins" and all the work should go in this direction. We are all different, have different sensitivities, come from different cultures where we interpret words in a different way - it's a given, no way to escape. But we have in common the love of a great piece of software provided by a very active and efficient community.

Why don't we focus on what unites us, instead of what creates divisions? 

Have a peaceful week-end
Olivier