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Managing International Sites

Jonathan S. Katz-3
Hi,

When going through an unrelated audit of the site contact, I was looking at our International Site page here:


…and when going through the links, noticed a bunch of the sites were either dead, unsupported, or placeholders, including:

* Chinese (Simplified)
* Cubana
* Español (all 3 listed)
* Greek
* Italiano (Associazione Italian PostgreSQL Users Group)
Additionally, others sites have not been updated for at least a year.

Before removing the dead links, I wanted to raise the following:

1.  Do the maintainers need to update the URLs? If so please contact me ASAP.  I would like to remove them by the end of the week.
2.  Do we feel that the international sites still provide value to the community at large?  This is mainly to solicit feedback and not start a fight.  Personally I am happy for us to monitor the sites (see point #3), but I want to ensure that these sites help drive adoption and usage of Postgres.
3.  If we are going to continue having the international sites as a feature, we need some community guidelines similar to what we setup for the NPOs and community events.  I would be happy to take charge on that if there are no objections.

Thanks!

Jonathan
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Re: Managing International Sites

damien clochard
Le 28.11.2017 22:20, Jonathan S. Katz a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> When going through an unrelated audit of the site contact, I was
> looking at our International Site page here:
>
>  https://www.postgresql.org/community/international/
>
> …and when going through the links, noticed a bunch of the sites were
> either dead, unsupported, or placeholders, including:
>
>  * Chinese (Simplified)
>  * Cubana
>  * Español (all 3 listed)
>  * Greek
>  * Italiano (Associazione Italian PostgreSQL Users Group)
>
> Additionally, others sites have not been updated for at least a year.
>
> Before removing the dead links, I wanted to raise the following:
>
>  1.  Do the maintainers need to update the URLs? If so please contact
> me ASAP.  I would like to remove them by the end of the week.
>  2.  Do we feel that the international sites still provide value to
> the community at large?  This is mainly to solicit feedback and not
> start a fight.  Personally I am happy for us to monitor the sites (see
> point #3), but I want to ensure that these sites help drive adoption
> and usage of Postgres.
>  3.  If we are going to continue having the international sites as a
> feature, we need some community guidelines similar to what we setup
> for the NPOs and community events.  I would be happy to take charge on
> that if there are no objections.
>

1. The link to the French speaking website should be
https://www.postgresql.fr/ ( instead of http://www.postgresqlfr.org/ )

2. Yes the French websites provides values to the community ! We have a
forum, a blog, the documentation, a wiki, etc... I think it'd be
interesting to add more links between the .org sites and the .fr sites.
For instances, it would be cool if every documentation page had a link
to the similar page in the French documentation, allowing readers to
switch easily between the original version and their own language

3. The postgresql.fr domain and the hosting service are paid by the
PostgreSQLFr association. The sysadmin team that operates it is open and
autonomous. The PostgreSQLfr association also holds most of the social
networks accounts (twitter, G+, linkedin, youtube, etc.) with another
dedicated team to manage those accounts. Lats year,  we defined a set of
guidelines regarding the use of these accounts (link below) and we'd be
happy to share our experience :

https://www.postgresql.fr/asso/charte_des_outils_de_communication



--
Damien Clochard

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Re: Managing International Sites

Guillaume Lelarge-3
2017-11-28 23:28 GMT+01:00 Damien Clochard <[hidden email]>:
Le 28.11.2017 22:20, Jonathan S. Katz a écrit :
Hi,

When going through an unrelated audit of the site contact, I was
looking at our International Site page here:

 https://www.postgresql.org/community/international/

…and when going through the links, noticed a bunch of the sites were
either dead, unsupported, or placeholders, including:

 * Chinese (Simplified)
 * Cubana
 * Español (all 3 listed)
 * Greek
 * Italiano (Associazione Italian PostgreSQL Users Group)

Additionally, others sites have not been updated for at least a year.

Before removing the dead links, I wanted to raise the following:

 1.  Do the maintainers need to update the URLs? If so please contact
me ASAP.  I would like to remove them by the end of the week.
 2.  Do we feel that the international sites still provide value to
the community at large?  This is mainly to solicit feedback and not
start a fight.  Personally I am happy for us to monitor the sites (see
point #3), but I want to ensure that these sites help drive adoption
and usage of Postgres.
 3.  If we are going to continue having the international sites as a
feature, we need some community guidelines similar to what we setup
for the NPOs and community events.  I would be happy to take charge on
that if there are no objections.


1. The link to the French speaking website should be https://www.postgresql.fr/ ( instead of http://www.postgresqlfr.org/ )

2. Yes the French websites provides values to the community ! We have a forum, a blog, the documentation, a wiki, etc... I think it'd be interesting to add more links between the .org sites and the .fr sites. For instances, it would be cool if every documentation page had a link to the similar page in the French documentation, allowing readers to switch easily between the original version and their own language

3. The postgresql.fr domain and the hosting service are paid by the PostgreSQLFr association. The sysadmin team that operates it is open and autonomous. The PostgreSQLfr association also holds most of the social networks accounts (twitter, G+, linkedin, youtube, etc.) with another dedicated team to manage those accounts. Lats year,  we defined a set of guidelines regarding the use of these accounts (link below) and we'd be happy to share our experience :

https://www.postgresql.fr/asso/charte_des_outils_de_communication


If need be, I +1 everything Damien just said there. There's a huge work on the translation of the manual, on the web forums, and on the NPO.


--
Guillaume.
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Re: Managing International Sites

Jonathan S. Katz-3
Hi Damien & Guillaume,

On Nov 28, 2017, at 6:29 PM, Guillaume Lelarge <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-11-28 23:28 GMT+01:00 Damien Clochard <[hidden email]>:
Le 28.11.2017 22:20, Jonathan S. Katz a écrit :
Hi,

When going through an unrelated audit of the site contact, I was
looking at our International Site page here:

 https://www.postgresql.org/community/international/

…and when going through the links, noticed a bunch of the sites were
either dead, unsupported, or placeholders, including:

 * Chinese (Simplified)
 * Cubana
 * Español (all 3 listed)
 * Greek
 * Italiano (Associazione Italian PostgreSQL Users Group)

Additionally, others sites have not been updated for at least a year.

Before removing the dead links, I wanted to raise the following:

 1.  Do the maintainers need to update the URLs? If so please contact
me ASAP.  I would like to remove them by the end of the week.
 2.  Do we feel that the international sites still provide value to
the community at large?  This is mainly to solicit feedback and not
start a fight.  Personally I am happy for us to monitor the sites (see
point #3), but I want to ensure that these sites help drive adoption
and usage of Postgres.
 3.  If we are going to continue having the international sites as a
feature, we need some community guidelines similar to what we setup
for the NPOs and community events.  I would be happy to take charge on
that if there are no objections.


1. The link to the French speaking website should be https://www.postgresql.fr/ ( instead of http://www.postgresqlfr.org/ )

Great, I will be sure to update that in the change.


2. Yes the French websites provides values to the community ! We have a forum, a blog, the documentation, a wiki, etc…

That is great to hear!

I think it'd be interesting to add more links between the .org sites and the .fr sites. For instances, it would be cool if every documentation page had a link to the similar page in the French documentation, allowing readers to switch easily between the original version and their own language

That is a very good idea and something we should explore.

3. The postgresql.fr domain and the hosting service are paid by the PostgreSQLFr association. The sysadmin team that operates it is open and autonomous. The PostgreSQLfr association also holds most of the social networks accounts (twitter, G+, linkedin, youtube, etc.) with another dedicated team to manage those accounts. Lats year,  we defined a set of guidelines regarding the use of these accounts (link below) and we'd be happy to share our experience :

https://www.postgresql.fr/asso/charte_des_outils_de_communication

If need be, I +1 everything Damien just said there. There's a huge work on the translation of the manual, on the web forums, and on the NPO.

My last point was for “If we do continue to link to the International sites, we should have guidelines on what content they should contain” similar to some other guidelines.  It seems like the PostgreSQL.fr and some of the other actively maintained ones could serve as a model for setting up those guidelines. Once those guidelines are published, we can give the international sites a grace period to follow the guidelines and also have a proper evaluation process for bringing new sites into the fold.

Best,

Jonathan
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Re: Managing International Sites

Justin Clift-2
On 2017-11-29 18:50, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
<snip>
> My last point was for “If we do continue to link to the International
> sites, we should have guidelines on what content they should contain”
> similar to some other guidelines.  It seems like the PostgreSQL.fr
> <http://postgresql.fr/> and some of the other actively maintained ones
> could serve as a model for setting up those guidelines. Once those
> guidelines are published, we can give the international sites a grace
> period to follow the guidelines and also have a proper evaluation
> process for bringing new sites into the fold.

Hmmm, this kind of sounds like us wanting to be control freakish about
stuff.

It doesn't hurt for us to have basic sanity checks (eg is the site
still online?, actively updated?, fairly accurate?).

But be careful of the desire to impose strict *requirements* much past
that.  Guidelines might be ok, but hard requirements (with no
flexibility)
might be more harmful/issue-causing than otherwise.

That being said... that's just a general concept. :)

+ Justin


> Best,
>
> Jonathan


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Re: Managing International Sites

Jonathan S. Katz-3
Hi Justin,

> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Justin Clift <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2017-11-29 18:50, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> <snip>
>> My last point was for “If we do continue to link to the International
>> sites, we should have guidelines on what content they should contain”
>> similar to some other guidelines.  It seems like the PostgreSQL.fr
>> <http://postgresql.fr/> and some of the other actively maintained ones
>> could serve as a model for setting up those guidelines. Once those
>> guidelines are published, we can give the international sites a grace
>> period to follow the guidelines and also have a proper evaluation
>> process for bringing new sites into the fold.
>
> Hmmm, this kind of sounds like us wanting to be control freakish about
> stuff.
>
> It doesn't hurt for us to have basic sanity checks (eg is the site
> still online?, actively updated?, fairly accurate?).
>
> But be careful of the desire to impose strict *requirements* much past
> that.  Guidelines might be ok, but hard requirements (with no flexibility)
> might be more harmful/issue-causing than otherwise.

Should we go down this path, they would be similar to the community event / NPO guidelines, which are just that.  They impose very few requirements, more they are a set of recommendations to follow.

Thanks,

Jonathan
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Re: Managing International Sites

Stephen Frost
Greetings,

* Jonathan S. Katz ([hidden email]) wrote:

> > On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Justin Clift <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 2017-11-29 18:50, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> My last point was for “If we do continue to link to the International
> >> sites, we should have guidelines on what content they should contain”
> >> similar to some other guidelines.  It seems like the PostgreSQL.fr
> >> <http://postgresql.fr/> and some of the other actively maintained ones
> >> could serve as a model for setting up those guidelines. Once those
> >> guidelines are published, we can give the international sites a grace
> >> period to follow the guidelines and also have a proper evaluation
> >> process for bringing new sites into the fold.
> >
> > Hmmm, this kind of sounds like us wanting to be control freakish about
> > stuff.
This is only if people want their websites to be linked from under
PostgreSQL.Org, and it seems entirely reasonable to have appropriate
policies for that.

> > It doesn't hurt for us to have basic sanity checks (eg is the site
> > still online?, actively updated?, fairly accurate?).

To be linked under .Org as a formal international part of the project
should definitely require more than just having an online website.  My
impression from above with your 'fairly accurate' seems to indicate that
you also think there's more that should be done than just having a
website- this is about defining what 'fairly accurate' means and,
further, what's appropriate content and management of the international
website is.

> > But be careful of the desire to impose strict *requirements* much past
> > that.  Guidelines might be ok, but hard requirements (with no flexibility)
> > might be more harmful/issue-causing than otherwise.

I agree that there should be some flexibility, but the guidelines
mentioned up-thread for .fr sound like exactly what we should be doing
and, yes, if the operator of an international PG website decides that
they don't want to follow those guidelines then, at a minimum, we should
remove the link to that website.

We have 'guidelines' for how the project's name and logo are able to
used too, and it's important that we actually look out for those cases
where the usage isn't proper and address it (which we actively do).

> Should we go down this path, they would be similar to the community event / NPO guidelines, which are just that.  They impose very few requirements, more they are a set of recommendations to follow.

I'm certainly in favor of this and agree that it sounds like the .fr
guidelines would be a good place to start.

Thanks!

Stephen

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Re: Managing International Sites

Yourfriend-2
Hi Jonathan,

The website for Chinese PostgreSQL community moved to http://www.postgres.cn/ . It was one of three main tools to support our 
community expansion. The website provides latest release and information about PostgreSQL, latest events in Chinese community, 
documents and experience sharing, discussion groups, etc. It does help the community a lot.

Regards,

Daojing Zhou.

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:21 PM, Stephen Frost <[hidden email]> wrote:
Greetings,

* Jonathan S. Katz ([hidden email]) wrote:
> > On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Justin Clift <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 2017-11-29 18:50, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> My last point was for “If we do continue to link to the International
> >> sites, we should have guidelines on what content they should contain”
> >> similar to some other guidelines.  It seems like the PostgreSQL.fr
> >> <http://postgresql.fr/> and some of the other actively maintained ones
> >> could serve as a model for setting up those guidelines. Once those
> >> guidelines are published, we can give the international sites a grace
> >> period to follow the guidelines and also have a proper evaluation
> >> process for bringing new sites into the fold.
> >
> > Hmmm, this kind of sounds like us wanting to be control freakish about
> > stuff.

This is only if people want their websites to be linked from under
PostgreSQL.Org, and it seems entirely reasonable to have appropriate
policies for that.

> > It doesn't hurt for us to have basic sanity checks (eg is the site
> > still online?, actively updated?, fairly accurate?).

To be linked under .Org as a formal international part of the project
should definitely require more than just having an online website.  My
impression from above with your 'fairly accurate' seems to indicate that
you also think there's more that should be done than just having a
website- this is about defining what 'fairly accurate' means and,
further, what's appropriate content and management of the international
website is.

> > But be careful of the desire to impose strict *requirements* much past
> > that.  Guidelines might be ok, but hard requirements (with no flexibility)
> > might be more harmful/issue-causing than otherwise.

I agree that there should be some flexibility, but the guidelines
mentioned up-thread for .fr sound like exactly what we should be doing
and, yes, if the operator of an international PG website decides that
they don't want to follow those guidelines then, at a minimum, we should
remove the link to that website.

We have 'guidelines' for how the project's name and logo are able to
used too, and it's important that we actually look out for those cases
where the usage isn't proper and address it (which we actively do).

> Should we go down this path, they would be similar to the community event / NPO guidelines, which are just that.  They impose very few requirements, more they are a set of recommendations to follow.

I'm certainly in favor of this and agree that it sounds like the .fr
guidelines would be a good place to start.

Thanks!

Stephen

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Re: Managing International Sites

Jonathan S. Katz-3
In reply to this post by Stephen Frost
Hi,

On Nov 30, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Stephen Frost <[hidden email]> wrote:

Greetings,

* Jonathan S. Katz ([hidden email]) wrote:
On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Justin Clift <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2017-11-29 18:50, Jonathan S. Katz wrote:
<snip>
My last point was for “If we do continue to link to the International
sites, we should have guidelines on what content they should contain”
similar to some other guidelines.  It seems like the PostgreSQL.fr
<http://postgresql.fr/> and some of the other actively maintained ones
could serve as a model for setting up those guidelines. Once those
guidelines are published, we can give the international sites a grace
period to follow the guidelines and also have a proper evaluation
process for bringing new sites into the fold.

Hmmm, this kind of sounds like us wanting to be control freakish about
stuff.

This is only if people want their websites to be linked from under
PostgreSQL.Org, and it seems entirely reasonable to have appropriate
policies for that.

It doesn't hurt for us to have basic sanity checks (eg is the site
still online?, actively updated?, fairly accurate?).

To be linked under .Org as a formal international part of the project
should definitely require more than just having an online website.  My
impression from above with your 'fairly accurate' seems to indicate that
you also think there's more that should be done than just having a
website- this is about defining what 'fairly accurate' means and,
further, what's appropriate content and management of the international
website is.

But be careful of the desire to impose strict *requirements* much past
that.  Guidelines might be ok, but hard requirements (with no flexibility)
might be more harmful/issue-causing than otherwise.

I agree that there should be some flexibility, but the guidelines
mentioned up-thread for .fr sound like exactly what we should be doing
and, yes, if the operator of an international PG website decides that
they don't want to follow those guidelines then, at a minimum, we should
remove the link to that website.

We have 'guidelines' for how the project's name and logo are able to
used too, and it's important that we actually look out for those cases
where the usage isn't proper and address it (which we actively do).

Should we go down this path, they would be similar to the community event / NPO guidelines, which are just that.  They impose very few requirements, more they are a set of recommendations to follow.

I'm certainly in favor of this and agree that it sounds like the .fr
guidelines would be a good place to start.

Thank you everyone for responding and providing both updated URLs and feedback for what we should do.  It’s great to hear that these sites continue to provide a lot of value to the community and we should continue to make an effort to highlight that from .org!

I have updated the [https://www.postgresql.org/community/international/] page to reflect the current list of international sites. I will go back and look into what we can do to create fair guidelines for having international sites listed so that way we all can represent the PostgreSQL community in the best possible way.

Thanks,

Jonathan