New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

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New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

damien clochard
Hey guys,

Last week during pgconf.eu in Warsaw, we had a developers meeting
dedicated to graphic tools.

You can find more details on this wiki page :
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PostgreSQL_Graphic_Tools_Developper_Meeting_2017

and here's a more opinionated reports I wrote :
http://blog.taadeem.net/english/2017/10/30/lets_build_better_graphic_tools_for_postgresql


To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to have
a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings and
share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
libraries, etc.

The list could be named "pgsql-gui" (for "Graphical User Interface") or
"pgsql-gui-dev" to emphasize that it's primarily for developers, not for
users support... The mailing list would be open to anyone, with public
archives.

I did not find documentation on how to ask for a list, so I'm posting it
here. Let me know if there's another way to ask for it or if you have
any questions about it....

Regards,

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Justin Clift-2
On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
<snip>
> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
> libraries, etc.

This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)

+ Justin


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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Joshua D. Drake
On 10/30/2017 04:13 PM, Justin Clift wrote:
> On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
> <snip>
>> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
>> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
>> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
>> libraries, etc.
>
> This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)

I agree that getting the developers together to collaborate is a great
idea but I wonder if we need a separate mailing list for it? Not going
to argue, just my 02 cents.

Either way, it is great to see this moving forward,

JD



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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

damien clochard
Le 31.10.2017 22:54, Joshua D. Drake a écrit :

> On 10/30/2017 04:13 PM, Justin Clift wrote:
>> On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
>>> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
>>> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
>>> libraries, etc.
>>
>> This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)
>
> I agree that getting the developers together to collaborate is a great
> idea but I wonder if we need a separate mailing list for it? Not going
> to argue, just my 02 cents.
>

This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing
list but we should always check if it is relevant before adding a new
one

In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the
current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything that really fits

* pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
* pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a
place to discuss any tool...
* pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces


In fact this new list would be pretty much like pgsql-cluster-hackers
(btw we could call it pgsql-gui-hackers to stay consistent) in that it's
not a place with a huge traffic but it's useful to connect various
groups working in the same domain.

I don't know, maybe we can open a list and make a test for 6 or 12
months and then if it's not useful or misused we can classify it as
"inactive" ?

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Neil Anderson-2
In reply to this post by damien clochard
Sounds great. Sign me up.

On 30 October 2017 at 18:27, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> Last week during pgconf.eu in Warsaw, we had a developers meeting dedicated
> to graphic tools.
>
> You can find more details on this wiki page :
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PostgreSQL_Graphic_Tools_Developper_Meeting_2017
>
> and here's a more opinionated reports I wrote :
> http://blog.taadeem.net/english/2017/10/30/lets_build_better_graphic_tools_for_postgresql
>
>
> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to have a
> special mailing list where we could organize further meetings and share
> experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting libraries, etc.
>
> The list could be named "pgsql-gui" (for "Graphical User Interface") or
> "pgsql-gui-dev" to emphasize that it's primarily for developers, not for
> users support... The mailing list would be open to anyone, with public
> archives.
>
> I did not find documentation on how to ask for a list, so I'm posting it
> here. Let me know if there's another way to ask for it or if you have any
> questions about it....
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Damien Clochard
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list ([hidden email])
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www



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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Daniel Gustafsson
In reply to this post by damien clochard
> On 01 Nov 2017, at 00:43, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Le 31.10.2017 22:54, Joshua D. Drake a écrit :
>> On 10/30/2017 04:13 PM, Justin Clift wrote:
>>> On 2017-10-30 22:27, Damien Clochard wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> To improve communications between the GUI developers, we'd like to
>>>> have a special mailing list where we could organize further meetings
>>>> and share experience and thoughts about design, common APIs, charting
>>>> libraries, etc.
>>> This sounds like a really, really good idea. :)
>> I agree that getting the developers together to collaborate is a great
>> idea but I wonder if we need a separate mailing list for it? Not going
>> to argue, just my 02 cents.
>
> This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing list but we should always check if it is relevant before adding a new one
>
> In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything that really fits
>
> * pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
> * pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a place to discuss any tool...
> * pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces

I assume this list will also see frequent posts with screenshots/mockups and
other graphics attached, something that perhaps not every -hackers reader might
enjoy.

So, a definite +1 from me on creating a new list as a test.

cheers ./daniel

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Christophe Pettus-2

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 01:31, Daniel Gustafsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I assume this list will also see frequent posts with screenshots/mockups and
> other graphics attached, something that perhaps not every -hackers reader might
> enjoy.
>
> So, a definite +1 from me on creating a new list as a test.

+1 as well.

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   [hidden email]



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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Gevik Babakhani-4
For me a +1 too.  I am planning to build a developer/administrator tool for PG
and it would be nice to share thoughts on the matter with others while keeping the GUI stuff in a separate list.


Gevik Babakhani
twitter: @gevik, @blendjs




On 1 Nov 2017, at 09:32, Christophe Pettus <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Nov 1, 2017, at 01:31, Daniel Gustafsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

I assume this list will also see frequent posts with screenshots/mockups and
other graphics attached, something that perhaps not every -hackers reader might
enjoy.

So, a definite +1 from me on creating a new list as a test.

+1 as well.

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  [hidden email]



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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Joshua D. Drake
In reply to this post by damien clochard
On 10/31/2017 04:43 PM, Damien Clochard wrote:

> This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing
> list but we should always check if it is relevant before adding a new one
>
> In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the
> current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything that really fits
>
> * pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
> * pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a
> place to discuss any tool...
> * pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces

I was thinking -admin might be appropriate as generally speaking that is
what we are talking about with graphical clients, easy PostgreSQL
Administration and it is already a very, very low volume list.

JD

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Álvaro Herrera
Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> On 10/31/2017 04:43 PM, Damien Clochard wrote:
>
> > This is a legitimate question. In fact, it's easy to create a mailing
> > list but we should always check if it is relevant before adding a new
> > one
> >
> > In this case, I had a look to the various possibilities among the
> > current "list of lists" but couldn't find anything that really fits
> >
> > * pgsql-hackers has already enough traffic :)
> > * pgadmin-hackers is dedicated to pgadmin development whereas we want a
> > place to discuss any tool...
> > * pgsql-interfaces is dedicated to drivers, not Graphic User Interfaces
>
> I was thinking -admin might be appropriate as generally speaking that is
> what we are talking about with graphical clients, easy PostgreSQL
> Administration and it is already a very, very low volume list.

I don't think the charter of the new list has anything to do with that
of pgsql-admin, other than the fact that both contain the substring
"admin".  A new pgsql-gui-hackers list seems like the way to go to me.

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PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services


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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Tom Lane-2
Alvaro Herrera <[hidden email]> writes:
> I don't think the charter of the new list has anything to do with that
> of pgsql-admin, other than the fact that both contain the substring
> "admin".  A new pgsql-gui-hackers list seems like the way to go to me.

+1.  My initial reaction was "use pgsql-interfaces", but on reflection
I agree that GUI concerns are outside the historical scope of that list.

                        regards, tom lane


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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

legrand legrand
+1

regards
PAscal

SQLeo visual query builder



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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

damien clochard
In reply to this post by damien clochard
Hey guys,

Any news on this topic ?

It seems everyone is ok with the creation of a new list, but how do we
proceed ? Do you want to migrate all the existing list to the new system
before adding a new one ?

Let me know how I can help !

--
Damien Clochard

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

damien clochard
In reply to this post by damien clochard
Hi,

I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have
no idea how to proceed...

I understand that the PG Lister migration is time consuming, and I can
wait if that's necessary. Just let me know how I can help  or what I
should do !

Regards,

--
Damien Clochard

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Simon Riggs
On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have no
> idea how to proceed...

Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
feature.

As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".

If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
start writing them now? Why wait?

Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
code, then maybe a special list is worth having.

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Magnus Hagander-2
On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Simon Riggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have no
> idea how to proceed...

Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
feature.

As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".

If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
start writing them now? Why wait?

Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
code, then maybe a special list is worth having.

I think that the core difference is that pitr was basically a subset of -hackers. (as was the win32-hackers list, which I believe was around the same time)

My understanding at least is that the target audience for a "gui list" has very little overlap with the target audience for the hackers list, right? 


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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Simon Riggs
On 30 November 2017 at 01:28, Magnus Hagander <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Simon Riggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have
>> > no
>> > idea how to proceed...
>>
>> Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
>> discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
>> feature.
>>
>> As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
>>
>> If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
>> start writing them now? Why wait?
>>
>> Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
>> code, then maybe a special list is worth having.
>
>
> I think that the core difference is that pitr was basically a subset of
> -hackers. (as was the win32-hackers list, which I believe was around the
> same time)
>
> My understanding at least is that the target audience for a "gui list" has
> very little overlap with the target audience for the hackers list, right?

Sure, but that wasn't my point.

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

Stephen Frost
In reply to this post by Magnus Hagander-2
Magnus, all,

* Magnus Hagander ([hidden email]) wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Simon Riggs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have no
> > > idea how to proceed...
> >
> > Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
> > discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
> > feature.
> >
> > As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
> >
> > If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
> > start writing them now? Why wait?
> >
> > Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
> > code, then maybe a special list is worth having.
>
> I think that the core difference is that pitr was basically a subset of
> -hackers. (as was the win32-hackers list, which I believe was around the
> same time)
>
> My understanding at least is that the target audience for a "gui list" has
> very little overlap with the target audience for the hackers list, right?
I'm a bit concerned about adding yet-another-mailing-list too, and I'll
point to 'pgsql-cluster-hackers' as an even more recent case where we
added a list and it ended up dying off.

Now, it's a good point that cluster-hackers is also just another subset
of -hackers, and perhaps gui-dev is enough different that it won't
suffer from this issue, but I have to ask this:

What of pgadmin-hackers ?  That list certainly gets traffic on it
regularly as it's being actively developed, but are people expecting
that traffic to move to this new list?  If not, why not?  If it's
because there's not enough commonality between pgadmin and whatever the
list is for, then I'm confused as to the point of the list.  If the idea
is to move the pgadmin-hackers traffic over to this new list, then that
would settle my concerns that it ends up being a dead list.

If there's other active projects that need lists to facilitate the
development of the project, then that also seems more likely to be used
moving forward, but having one general list for what seems like a bunch
of independet projects strikes me as a bit odd, especially when the one
I'm most familiar with (pgadmin) is going to continue to be
independent (if that's the case, which I'm guessing it is..).

Thanks!

Stephen

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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

damien clochard
In reply to this post by Simon Riggs
Le 29.11.2017 15:24, Simon Riggs a écrit :

> On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have
>> no
>> idea how to proceed...
>
> Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
> discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
> feature.
>
> As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
>
> If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
> start writing them now? Why wait?
>
> Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
> code, then maybe a special list is worth having.

To be honest my first intention was to set up a mailing list with google
groups just after the Warsaw meeting and start discussions right away.
But many people thought that having the list hosted on the
postgresql.org infra would send a strong message that the Postgres
community recognizes and supports the efforts to build better graphics
tools. This is why I asked for a new list here.

Now if you ask "why Graphic tools developpers do not currently send
their messages on some existing list ?". I would say that most of them
are not deeply involved in the postgres community and they don't feel
comfortable posting on the psql-hackers or some other lists because the
Postgres community does not seem to be a very supportive for UI
developpers and designers. I'm not saying it's true, I'm just saying
that psql-hackers does not sound like a place to discuss about UI/UX
design :)

I've searched for an existing mailing lists where those discussions
would be welcomed and I couldn't find any. If you have something to
suggest, I'm all ears !

--
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Re: New Mailing List : pgsql-gui-dev@postgresql.org ?

damien clochard
In reply to this post by Stephen Frost
Le 29.11.2017 15:37, Stephen Frost a écrit :

> Magnus, all,
>
> * Magnus Hagander ([hidden email]) wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Simon Riggs <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > On 29 November 2017 at 20:29, Damien Clochard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm sorry to insist but my original message was a month ago and I have no
>> > > idea how to proceed...
>> >
>> > Back in 2004, there was huge interest in setting up a special list to
>> > discuss PITR. We did, then everyone waited for me to write the
>> > feature.
>> >
>> > As a result we said "no more special purpose lists".
>> >
>> > If anybody is actually planning to write emails to this list, why not
>> > start writing them now? Why wait?
>> >
>> > Just use the prefix "GUI". If we get enough people writing emails and
>> > code, then maybe a special list is worth having.
>>
>> I think that the core difference is that pitr was basically a subset
>> of
>> -hackers. (as was the win32-hackers list, which I believe was around
>> the
>> same time)
>>
>> My understanding at least is that the target audience for a "gui list"
>> has
>> very little overlap with the target audience for the hackers list,
>> right?
>
> I'm a bit concerned about adding yet-another-mailing-list too, and I'll
> point to 'pgsql-cluster-hackers' as an even more recent case where we
> added a list and it ended up dying off.
>
> Now, it's a good point that cluster-hackers is also just another subset
> of -hackers, and perhaps gui-dev is enough different that it won't
> suffer from this issue, but I have to ask this:
>
> What of pgadmin-hackers ?  That list certainly gets traffic on it
> regularly as it's being actively developed, but are people expecting
> that traffic to move to this new list?  If not, why not?  If it's
> because there's not enough commonality between pgadmin and whatever the
> list is for, then I'm confused as to the point of the list.  If the
> idea
> is to move the pgadmin-hackers traffic over to this new list, then that
> would settle my concerns that it ends up being a dead list.
>
> If there's other active projects that need lists to facilitate the
> development of the project, then that also seems more likely to be used
> moving forward, but having one general list for what seems like a bunch
> of independet projects strikes me as a bit odd, especially when the one
> I'm most familiar with (pgadmin) is going to continue to be
> independent (if that's the case, which I'm guessing it is..).
>
>

Hi !

If we had only a handful of graphic tools for Postgres, I would
definitely agree with you. But so far we have identified 60 developers
actively working on 35 different tools. Diversity is a chance for open
source projects but at this level of fragmentation it begins to hurt
everyone : developpers are wasting time and code on the same issues,
same needs.

Our goal is not to unify every projects into one but we need a space to
discuss about common APIs, compare charting libraries, frameworks,
common libraries, standard JSON outputs, common design principles,
shared experiences, etc.

You are right that this list could end up being a dead list. I cannot
estimate how much traffic it will  receive. But I am positive that it is
clearly not a subset of psql-hackers or any other list, or at least most
of the 60 developers we have identified are not active on any other
mailing lists of the community.

--
Damien Clochard

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