Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Bruce Momjian-2
Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> http://lnk.nu/prnewswire.com/4dv.pl

Amazing.  You have to love the totally unrelated license mention Oracle
added to the press release:

        InnoDB is not a standalone database product:  it is distributed as a
        part of the MySQL database.  InnoDB's contractual relationship with
        MySQL comes up for renewal next year.  Oracle fully expects to negotiate
        an extension of that relationship.

Read $$$.

This is the logical way Oracle would attack a competitor (buy up a key
piece of their technology).  Oracle looked for MySQL's easiest weakness
to exploit, and found it.  It isn't even vaguely cloaked, because InnoDB
doesn't even have a db product, it is just licensed by MySQL.  This
certainly puts a dent in the MySQL 5.0 press buzz, which I suppose was
part of the timing.

Do open source users want licensed technology from a company owned by
Oracle?  I doubt it.   My guess is that the InnoDB license will now be
used as FUD against MySQL perpetually.

This might also be related to the article by the MySQL CEO saying they
are not competing with Oracle:

        http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=9231B8BD-3788-4DB2-B85F-707E75857B58

This might be a sort of detente saying MySQL will not move into Oracle
accounts.  Certainly the MySQL CEO must have known this was coming, so
his comments now appear in a different light.

What is our vulnerability?  Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
developers.  I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
(Marc, are you for sale? :-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  [hidden email]               |  (610) 359-1001
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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Josh berkus
Bruce,

> What is our vulnerability?  Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
> developers.  I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
> (Marc, are you for sale? :-):-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

Well, that *is* a serious concern.   That's why Marc and I are working on
making sure these things are legally protected.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Andrew Sullivan-8
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 03:02:57PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> What is our vulnerability?  Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
> developers.  I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
> (Marc, are you for sale? :-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

That strikes me as a good reason to get the trademarks out from any
one person's control.  While I certainly trust Marc not to abuse
them, nothing is safer than institutional protection.  In the
unlikely event that Marc was unable to defend the things he holds in
trust for the community, some agent could determine that the best
settlement could be achieved by selling the "asset" to someone.  

A

--
Andrew Sullivan  | [hidden email]
In the future this spectacle of the middle classes shocking the avant-
garde will probably become the textbook definition of Postmodernism.
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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Aly Dharshi
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2

> Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.

  This will happen eventually, there is no doubt, Sun seems like its
going to eventually integrate PostgreSQL into Solaris as a pkg most
likely:

http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;116679278;fp;16;fpid;0

  Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful thinking.

  Cheers,

  Aly.

--
Aly S.P Dharshi
[hidden email]

  "A good speech is like a good dress
   that's short enough to be interesting
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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Bruce Momjian-2
Aly S.P Dharshi wrote:

>
> > Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.
>
>   This will happen eventually, there is no doubt, Sun seems like its
> going to eventually integrate PostgreSQL into Solaris as a pkg most
> likely:
>
> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;116679278;fp;16;fpid;0
>
>   Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
> may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful thinking.

I have seen @sun.com posters already, so it has started.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  [hidden email]               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Tom Lane-2
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
Bruce Momjian <[hidden email]> writes:
> Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.

Given that MyISAM is still their first love, I don't think that outcome
is preposterous at all.  If Oracle tries to squeeze too hard, that's
probably exactly what they'll do.  It'll put a bit of a dent in their
claims to having transaction support, but I think their bread-and-butter
applications are still mostly MyISAM.

                        regards, tom lane

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Marc G. Fournier-2
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> What is our vulnerability?  Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
> developers.  I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
> (Marc, are you for sale? :-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

I'm not for sale, else I would have sold a *long* time ago ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [hidden email]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Denis Lussier-2
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase
It may be hard for u to resist if those wacky guyz from Redwood offered eight figures (and I'm not counting the ones to the right of the decimal point).
 
--Luss


From: [hidden email] on behalf of Marc G. Fournier
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 4:14 PM
To: Bruce Momjian
Cc: Jim C. Nasby; [hidden email]; PostgreSQL advocacy
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> What is our vulnerability?  Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
> developers.  I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
> (Marc, are you for sale? :-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

I'm not for sale, else I would have sold a *long* time ago ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [hidden email]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Josh berkus
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
Bruce, Aly,

> >   Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
> > may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful
> > thinking.
>
> I have seen @sun.com posters already, so it has started.

Actually, the Sun folks have been contributing indirectly for a while, and are
working on getting Solaris binary packaging organized.   They're just not big
on joining mailing lists, something we need to educate them on.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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Sun Involvements (was Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase)

Chris Browne
[hidden email] (Josh Berkus) writes:

> Bruce, Aly,
>
>> >   Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
>> > may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful
>> > thinking.
>>
>> I have seen @sun.com posters already, so it has started.
>
> Actually, the Sun folks have been contributing indirectly for a
> while, and are working on getting Solaris binary packaging
> organized.  They're just not big on joining mailing lists, something
> we need to educate them on.

I remember hearing some talk about DTRACE efforts; I hope that is
proceeding, as it has the potential to be really generally useful
(even for non-Solaris platforms).

Solaris is one of the platforms which hasn't been quite ideal for
PostgreSQL (in comparison with, say, Linux) as it prefers threading to
forking (which doubtless links to the Java thing about threading...).
Improving PostgreSQL performance on Solaris would be no bad thing, as
that would add some useful choices in view of the gradual "dying off"
of Big Iron Unix platforms (SGI comes particularly to mind, and HP
looks to have been distracted by the Itanium thing...)
--
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "cbbrowne.com")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html
"Feel free to  contact me (flames about my english  and the useless of
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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Mitch Pirtle
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
On 10/8/05, Thomas F. O'Connell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All of which seems to beg the question: why did not MySQL buy
> Innobase themselves? As far as I've read, the terms of the
> transaction were not disclosed. I guess it's possible that MySQL
> didn't have the financial reach to pull off the deal.

Well, if I was Oracle and had a sneaky idea, I would *first* get
Innobase Oy under NDA, and *then* start acquisition talks...

Oracle has done enough business over the years to know that a bidding
war would have put them in a horrible position, possibly an
unrecoverable one. The somewhat muted reaction from MySQL leaves me
the impression that they were blindsided.

OTOH, this news doesn't exactly make MySQL look good, so it is also
natural for them to downplay the situation. Maybe they have had
contingency plans all along and just haven't progressed enough with
them to make any formal announcements.

-- Mitch, waiting for the movie, liking the idea of Danny DeVito
playing Larry Ellison

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

David Fetter
On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 10:24:29PM -0400, Mitch Pirtle wrote:

> -- Mitch, waiting for the movie, liking the idea of Danny DeVito
> playing Larry Ellison

So Frank Vincent is playing Monty? ;)

Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter [hidden email] http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100   mobile: +1 415 235 3778

Remember to vote!

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Jim C. Nasby
In reply to this post by Mitch Pirtle
On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 10:24:29PM -0400, Mitch Pirtle wrote:

> On 10/8/05, Thomas F. O'Connell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > All of which seems to beg the question: why did not MySQL buy
> > Innobase themselves? As far as I've read, the terms of the
> > transaction were not disclosed. I guess it's possible that MySQL
> > didn't have the financial reach to pull off the deal.
>
> Well, if I was Oracle and had a sneaky idea, I would *first* get
> Innobase Oy under NDA, and *then* start acquisition talks...
>
> Oracle has done enough business over the years to know that a bidding
> war would have put them in a horrible position, possibly an
> unrecoverable one. The somewhat muted reaction from MySQL leaves me
> the impression that they were blindsided.

How would a bidding war put them in a horrible position? Whatever they
paid for Innobase is pocket-change. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that
Larry paid more for his jet than he/Oracle paid for Innobase.
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [hidden email]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Philip Hallstrom-3
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
> [ Comment asking what we can do to protect ourselves.]
>
> We can't do much, actually.  The trademark thing can be secured, but
> other than that, I see no other defenses we could use.  We can't prevent
> people from being hired, and we can't guard against patent attacks.

Seems you could argue that if the success of the postgresql project is in
the hands of so few then we've got issues regardless of Oracle.  Those
people could (heaven forbid) get hit by the proverbial bus.  It would have
the same effect on postgresql itself.  Anyway, just something to keep in
mind...

> I am willing to write up something for our web site if people think that
> would be helpful.

I think it it might be worth mentioning (in response to the
mysql/innodb/oracle issue) that there's nothing for Oracle to purchase
that would limit postgresql in the future -- that postgresql doesn't rely
on any commercially licensed code the removal of which would adversely
affect postgresql itself.

Anyway, that's my little 2 cents... :)

-philip

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Gregory S. Williamson
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
Jim C. Nasby was quoted as saying:

> > Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> > > Of course one flip-side to all this is that if Oracle does attack us it
> > > actually lends credibility; it means they see PostgreSQL as a threat. At
> > > this point that could do more good for us than harm, depending on how
> > > exactly the attacked.
> >
> > Well, that was MySQL's reaction to it, but I think the harm far
> > outweighs the good for them.  Its more like, "Oracle finds MySQL a
> > threat, what is MySQL going to do now!"  We don't want that kind of
> > outcome.  Also, there are ways of attacking that do not show Oracle as
> > an agreesor, like hiring PostgreSQL developers.
>
> Well, they effectively took a big chunk of MySQL's commercial technology
> away, something the'd have a harder time doing with PostgreSQL (unless
> we're violating patents).
--

Doesn't really matter if the legal issues are ultimately in one's favor, if one's erstwhile opponent has enough lawyer time ... even if you can survive the lengthy battle, it may well be a pyrrhic victory.

Not having specific assets to be tied up helps, but Oracle could then generate enough FUD it would hamper the use (and spread) of PostgreSQL. Oracle would probably not do so directly but through some 3rd party (or parties).

OTH, has PostgreSQL cost Oracle enough, or does it threaten to cost enough, to make such a venture worthwhile? In the short run it would generate a lot of unsympathetic press and some support for the project.

My $0.03 worth ... and now back to work.

Greg Williamson


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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Marc G. Fournier-2
In reply to this post by Bruce Momjian-2
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Jussi Mikkola wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Well, if the PostgreSQL developers would be hired away from the project with
> big money, would that not mean, that the project would be a good path to earn
> a lot of money. So, new talented developers could join the project and see
> that as a path to high salary jobs??

Wow, what a twisted way to look at it ... not entirely inaccurate, but
twisted :)


----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [hidden email]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Jan Wieck
On 10/12/2005 6:18 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Jussi Mikkola wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Well, if the PostgreSQL developers would be hired away from the project with
>> big money, would that not mean, that the project would be a good path to earn
>> a lot of money. So, new talented developers could join the project and see
>> that as a path to high salary jobs??
>
> Wow, what a twisted way to look at it ... not entirely inaccurate, but
> twisted :)

Oracle could even develop an exceptional interest in keeping PostgreSQL
alive as it's "future DB engineer forge".


Jan

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Marc G. Fournier-2
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Jan Wieck wrote:

> On 10/12/2005 6:18 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Jussi Mikkola wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Well, if the PostgreSQL developers would be hired away from the project
>>> with big money, would that not mean, that the project would be a good path
>>> to earn a lot of money. So, new talented developers could join the project
>>> and see that as a path to high salary jobs??
>>
>> Wow, what a twisted way to look at it ... not entirely inaccurate, but
>> twisted :)
>
> Oracle could even develop an exceptional interest in keeping PostgreSQL alive
> as it's "future DB engineer forge".

Definitely ... get new developers involved over here to 'cut their teeth'
and then pull them over there once they are through the teething period :)
Or, encourage them to work here wihle still in University, learn DB
internals ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [hidden email]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Andreas Pflug
In reply to this post by Jan Wieck
Jan Wieck wrote:

> On 10/12/2005 6:18 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Jussi Mikkola wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Well, if the PostgreSQL developers would be hired away from the
>>> project with big money, would that not mean, that the project would
>>> be a good path to earn a lot of money. So, new talented developers
>>> could join the project and see that as a path to high salary jobs??
>>
>>
>> Wow, what a twisted way to look at it ... not entirely inaccurate, but
>> twisted :)
>
>
> Oracle could even develop an exceptional interest in keeping PostgreSQL
> alive as it's "future DB engineer forge".

Looks like a good reason why Oracle should sponsor PostgreSQL heavily :-)

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

Jim C. Nasby
On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 08:52:58AM +0000, Andreas Pflug wrote:
> Jan Wieck wrote:
> >Oracle could even develop an exceptional interest in keeping PostgreSQL
> >alive as it's "future DB engineer forge".
>
> Looks like a good reason why Oracle should sponsor PostgreSQL heavily :-)

Heh. This gives me the thought that Oracle might be going after MySQL
for no other reason than to stop them from instilling really bad ideas
into people who then think they can design/develop against databases.
Somehow I can see Tom Kyte (of AskTom fame) doing a dance around his
office...
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [hidden email]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
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